Veteran UFO researcher Rich Hoffman joins Martin Willis to discuss his remarkable six-decade journey investigating UFOs and UAP, from the 1964 Socorro era through MUFON, decades of defense systems work and today’s scientific study of anomalous phenomena. Rich discusses the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies, what constitutes meaningful UAP evidence, the need for sophisticated sensors and rigorous methodology, government involvement, his presentation at a NATO Space Domain conference, and what researchers have and have not learned after more than 60 years of investigation.

BIO: Rich Hoffman is a retired Senior Systems Engineering Analyst who spent more than 30 years supporting the U.S. Army Materiel Command at Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville, Alabama. With a B.A. in Organizational Communication from Wright State University and a broad professional background in IT, training, organizational development and leadership, he has also devoted nearly six decades to investigating and researching UFOs/UAP, beginning in 1964 around the time of the Lonnie Zamora Socorro incident. Growing up in Dayton, Ohio, Rich joined the Midwest UFO Network, later MUFON, in 1969 and went on to serve in numerous leadership roles, including State Director, Star Team Manager, Deputy Director for Investigations and Director of Strategic Projects; he remains a MUFON Benefactor and Lifetime Member. In 2017, he helped establish the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies (SCU), where he currently serves as an Executive Board Officer. SCU brings together more than 400 scientists, engineers, former military personnel, academics and business professionals to study UAP using scientific methods and advanced technologies. Rich also serves as a Board Advisor to the Society for UAP Studies (SUAPS), represented the United States at a NATO Space Domain conference in Bologna, Italy, in 2022, and has appeared on numerous television, radio and podcast programs, including as a regular contributor to History Channel’s The Proof Is Out There. He has also coauthored several scientific papers on UAP research, many of which are available through the SCU website.

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Martin Willis interviews Dean Merchant live at the Rye New Hampshire Library, with a live audience, for a fascinating conversation about UFOs in New Hampshire. Dean, co-founder of the Exeter UFO Festival, discusses why the Granite State has long been considered one of the most active UFO regions in America. The conversation explores the legendary 1965 Incident at Exeter, the continuing mystery surrounding sightings in the Exeter/Kensington area, and other notable New Hampshire hotspots including Fremont, Brentwood, Raymond, Nottingham, Pawtuckaway, Ossipee, and the White Mountains. We also get into theories about why these areas may be so active, from geology and rare minerals to reports of USOs and long-standing witness testimony. If you’re interested in New England UFO history, regional hotspots, and the ongoing mystery of unexplained sightings in New Hampshire, this is an episode you won’t want to miss.

Guest: Dean Merchant
Host: Martin Willis
Location: Rye New Hampshire Library

BIO: Dean Merchant is a local historian who serves as a witness in the context of UAP/UFO research. He is featured in the video “Incident at Exeter,” which discusses Norman Muscarello’s 1965 UFO encounter, contributing to the historical narrative surrounding UAP phenomena. His role as a historian adds a contextual layer to the examination of such incidents

The National UFO Reporting Center, started in 1976 by Robert Gribble, has been a mainstay in UFO research ever since. Its present director is Peter Davenport, who took on the position in 1994. As the name implies, NUFORC is primarily a reporting center, but there are four investigators, Keith Bickford, John Budrys, Ben Hansen, and Lynda Thompson, listed in the “About Us” section of the website. While browsing the “Posts” section, the November 28, 2025, post titled, “Mysterious Lights in Northern Michigan – A NUFORC Investigation” caught our eye. It covers a case investigated by Budrys and has a link to his report and the report of the primary witness.

According to the post, from September into October 2025, a couple in northern Michigan had “repeated encounters” with basketball-sized illuminated objects. The couple, a 75-year-old artist and her 87-year-old husband with a PhD in psychology live in an isolated area with no nearby light sources, which made the lighted objects they saw stand out.

The woman, considered to be the primary witness, reported that the first sighting was of a small object on September 1^st at 11:38 p.m. It’s described as, “a compact object with three shifting, multicolored illuminated sections, which changed shape while remaining part of a single structure…” The witness managed to capture it on 1m 24s of video, which was attached, along with four others, to her initial written report to NUFORC.

The second sighting was on September 28^th at 9:00 p.m., with the primary witness and her husband observing what is described as “a more complex display: multiple lights of varying shapes and colors appearing and disappearing at eye level near the front of the house.” The husband “expressed concern” when a group of three lights in a “V” formation within a “dark circular form” separated and rapidly moved off in different directions. After getting over their surprise, they set about capturing video. Part of the ground on their property was “softly illuminated during the occurrence.”

The last sighting described was on October 2^nd at 12:32 a.m. The primary witness saw a bright white light that hung silently over their stable. She videoed it for about 35 minutes, and while the object didn’t seem to react when a beam from a powerful flashlight was put on it, the video showed it changing position.

According to the section of the post under the heading, “The Investigation,” Budrys owns a nearby cabin and was able to interview the witnesses, including their son whose own observations were not part of the original report, and see the site for himself. He found the witnesses to be “highly credible” and was able to verify the remoteness of the location.

The initial interpretation that what was seen was a “diffuse energy form” was “reconsidered” after viewing the video, which seemed to show a structured form consisting of “six, multicolored luminous components.” The idea that the objects might have been drones was rejected due to their silence and low flight paths in wooded areas, and that they might be astronomical phenomena was rejected due to their approaches to within 20-30 feet. It is noted that the sightings occurred during “unusual and largely unlogged military air activity near Camp Grayling.”

According to the section under the heading “Conclusions,” Budrys “concluded that the object was most consistent with a compact, silent, structured technological system of unknown origin.” That it might be some secret advanced human or alien technology “cannot be determined.”

The witness’s submitted sighting report, # 193270, identifies the location as Elmira, Michigan. The report is extremely thorough and includes descriptions of what was seen on each night with far greater detail than those in the post. For example, the witness describes the object seen on September 1^st this way: “The object appeared to be a single unit with three distinct illuminated sections that were pulsating pink and white most of the time, but also shifted through many other colors. These sections constantly changed shape, appearing to move and transform independently, yet remained part of one connected object.” According to her, when she watched the video the next day, she noticed that “it didn’t simply vanish—it moved in a “V” pattern and zipped away.” She also noticed “another bright shape” cross the frame from the left close to the camera at around 1m 18s. She notes that there were several instances of static, which she’d never seen before in “hundreds” of videos taken prior to the sighting.

A still photo and five videos are presented after Budrys’s report. We assume that the video from the first sighting is the second one down after the still as it is 1m 24s long. The object seen in it is quite small (this is true for all the videos), but the shifting pattern of multicolored lights can be clearly seen. There are instances of static, and notably, at 1m 18s, static is seen after a blob-like something comes down from the left and goes below the camera.

The third video down seems to be from the second sighting as what might be a lens flare can be seen to the right of something with three lights that periodically move into a “V” shape. The witness and her husband are heard commenting. The lights start off being red and slowly shift to being white by the end of the 1m 10s video.

The next video down is 42s and a white blob seen at the beginning shifts into what looks to be five separate lights that appear somewhat polarized by the end.

The last video is 19s and seems to be of what was seen over the stable, but it is very dark. A tiny white light can be seen between tall trees, and it’s above a white rectangular structure. The ground appears to be illuminated. By the end of the video, what seemed to be a single light has become two lights, one on top of the other. The still photo before the videos seems to be what the witness was referring to when she wrote this just after the description of the September 28^th sighting: “I have a photo clearly showing its position and distance from the ground relative to the stable, providing a good visual reference for its height and location.” There is a light in the photo, but it’s not made clear if was actually there or added for illustration.

In all of the videos, which have sound as the witness/witnesses can be heard during them, there is no sound from the lights/objects. While what is seen is quite small, it does resemble the descriptions in the reports.

The witness wrote that she consulted ChatGPT before submitting her report. Considered as possibilities for the sightings were astronomical objects, planes, drones, and ground-based sources. According to her, none of these “fit the full set of observations.”

Budrys’s report follows, and it has much of the information already presented. He says the witness only included the “3 better sightings” in her report and that there were other sightings, including one by the witness along with her son. That was of something so far away both of them thought “it could have been anything.” According to Budrys, the couple’s dogs weren’t alarmed during the sightings, but at one point, the primary witness became concerned that “maybe it was after them” and “was scared enough to stay in the house and not investigate any further.”

Along with the details of his investigation, Budrys includes comments supporting the claims of the witnesses including this one after describing the witness and her husband showing him a photo they took of the moon through some trees to see if they could have been fooled by it: “But I did not see multicolored sections as in the subject object videos. And these are not witnesses who are hallucinating on drugs and thinking the Moon is 20 feet away.”

Budrys’s conclusions were presented in the post, but they have a personal touch in his report, reflecting his first-hand involvement. He says he told the husband he was “sad to say” he didn’t know what they’d seen, and he compares the mystery to that of the orbs over New Jersey earlier that year that were dismissed as drones by the “current administration.” He wonders “if the repeated visits and extended duration may indicate the object is trying to convey something,” particularly to the wife, and adds that what the message might be and why the couple was chosen for the visits “is unknown.” He closes by thanking the couple for their detailed report, time, and assistance.

Australian UAP researcher, activist and podcaster Grant Lavac joins Martin Willis to discuss Australia’s continuing reluctance to investigate unidentified anomalous phenomena, despite its participation in the Five Eyes UAP Caucus Working Group. Grant examines Australia’s lack of a formal reporting system for military personnel and civilian pilots, what his Freedom of Information research suggests may be happening behind closed doors, and why some Australian pilots have instead submitted reports to Ryan Graves’s Americans for Safe Aerospace. The conversation also explores new developments surrounding the 1966 Westall UFO incident, the mysterious disappearance of pilot Frederick Valentich, and the Australian government’s failure to respond to calls for an independent Westall inquiry. Martin and Grant also confront the UFO community’s growing “disclosure fatigue” and ask whether it is finally time for firsthand witnesses, verifiable evidence and receipts.

SHOW NOTES

SHOW NOTES

Starting in December 1975 and continuing into the middle of 1976, there was a UFO flap in the area of Madoc, a village in Ontario, Canada, halfway between Toronto and Ottawa. Investigators from the Ontario-based Neptune Research Organization went to the area, interviewed witnesses, and were able to see for themselves what may be the most unique UFO-related trace evidence ever recorded.

Harry Tokarz, “affiliated with Neptune Research” and “editor and publisher” of UFO Pulse Analyzer wrote a report on the case and published it in the first issue of his journal, put out in April 1977. According to Tokarz, the flap came to the attention of the press when a farmer in an area north of Madoc found something unusual on his property and contacted Madoc Review reporter Ron Heiser. NRO found out about it and seven investigators, including Tokarz, “were dispatched.” Besides studying and analyzing what was in the farmer’s field, they found several witnesses who reported seeing UFOs throughout the Madoc area.

The earliest report described is that of Pauline Dudgeon who said that on December 11, 1975, a bright light caught her attention. She went to a window, looked out, and saw a large object that took up the width of Highway 12. A pulsing red light on top of it made her think she was looking at a traffic accident scene. She went outside and was, in Tokarz’s words, “awed by what she described (from 1000 ft. distance) as a disc or oval-shaped object with a dome or cupula on top and bright lights revolving around its periphery.” She was particularly fascinated by the bright light on top as she watched the object for 20 minutes.

After Dudgeon went back inside, she still had a residual image of the light. Her vision was blurred, and she found herself continually blinking and wiping her eyes. An eye specialist in Belleville told her she was suffering from what would result if one was to stare at a welding arc without safety goggles. Tokarz notes that eyes being affected by ultraviolet radiation during close encounters with UFOs is a common occurrence and cautions against prolonged observation of “brilliant” objects.

According to Tokarz, “exactly three weeks later,” the Dudgeon family saw a similar object hovering in a field near their home. Doug Dudgeon reported that it left at “fantastic speed” over their barn. There were multiple witnesses, including Mr. and Mrs. Frank Pringle. “Four beam-like projections” reportedly came from the flat underside of the object and Tokarz speculates that this might “tie in” with “the 200 or more 18” growth circles found on the Barry farm.” There is no account of that aspect of the case, but on page 9 there is a drawing detailing the circles.

Most of the sightings described took place in the first two weeks of June 1976. According to Tokarz, Bill Holmes and his family claimed to have had five sightings of, in Tokarz’s words, “large illuminated objects” during the period from June 4-13, 1976. Only the first sighting near the family home is described and is said to be of an object at treetop height that was too bright for any details to be discerned. Mr. Holmes said it was top-shaped and that as it hovered, “all animal sounds abruptly ceased and the air was still.” It then seemed to land in a nearby field where large areas of scorched barley were later found that hadn’t been there previously.

The last sighting described was reported by Dennis Craigen of Neuburgh, Ontario.  According to the account, Craigen said that on June 12, 1976, while driving towards his house with his girlfriend, he saw a total of four lights. He spotted the first one as it descended behind some trees next to the road in front of him, but he didn’t see it as he drove by.

Then, as he came up to his house, a second light appeared out of nowhere and flew towards the car. It suddenly reversed direction, flew over the house, and hovered. It was joined by another object that, in Craigen’s words, “turned on like a light bulb.”

The couple watched for a few minutes and then Craigen turned the car around and headed for the Ontario Provincial Police detachment in Neuburgh. On the way, he saw a fourth light that was going about 50 mph at an altitude of 200 feet. He described the lights as red spheres that were able to change direction quickly in a single movement. He said they got brighter as they rose up silently at 30-60 mph and would “feather out” as they descended.

Using our license to do so, we’ve saved the most dramatic report for last, although it’s the first one detailed in Tokarz’s report. According to Tokarz, on May 12, 1976, in a remote area north of Madoc known as “the island,” Cooper, Ontario, farmer Reginald Trotter was hauling wood when he noticed three large eight-inch deep holes in his field. What was unusual was that the removed dirt was sitting near the holes with grass still on top like large chunks of sod.

A drawing made by Eric Aldwinkle from Tokarz’s notes is presented on page 7 and is titled, “Trotter’s Field June 5^th 1976.” It shows three “cavities” marked A, B, and C. A and B are triangular with the sides of A measuring 3’x3’x5’, and the sides of B measuring 8’x8’x10’. C is more of a rectangle but is treated as a triangle with measurements of 3’x3’x4’.  Just above the cavities is the “uprooted turf dropped 20’ away.” The longer measurements appear to be part of an arc totaling 36’.

According to Tokarz, Trotter made a phone call to the Canadian Forces Base in Trenton, Ontario, and it was then relayed to the OPP in Belleville and finally to the OPP in Madoc. Lightning was suggested as the cause, but this was ruled out by “lightning expert for the government,” Dr. Frank C. Creed. Trotter knew himself that lightning leaves furrows and scorch marks, and these were not present.

Other experts weighed in: the head of a construction machinery manufacturing company, Bob Reinke, said, “no conventional farm or earth moving machinery could have moved these pieces intact, which weighed between 400-800 pounds apiece;” and geologist, Dr, John Westgate, in Tokarz’s words, “could offer no plausible explanation for this anomaly.”

Tokarz notes that there is no evidence that a UFO “touched down” and speculates that one “made a close approach,” sucked up the chunks of earth, and dropped them as it flew on. He tells the reader that in 30 years of investigation, there had never been a similar case.

Bob Pratt wrote an article (page 61 of the pdf) about the case headlined, “UFOs Sighted in Area Where Huge Chunks of Earth Are Mysteriously Cut From Ground and Moved Intact,” published in the August 17, 1976, National Enquirer. Apparently, Tokarz and the other investigators didn’t talk to enough farmers in the area. Pratt wrote that similar holes where “the earth and grass were moved intact” were found on two other farms in the area. Farmer Glenn Rollins is quoted: “One of the pieces I found must have weighed at least 600 pounds – and it was 30 feet from the hole. There were no signs of machinery or tracks.” Trotter also ruled out machinery being used on his property saying, “Any vehicle would have to go right through my yard.”

Mysterious diggings found in fields in Pine Bush, New York, with the removed dirt missing were reported during a period of extensive UFO and high-strangeness activity that started in the 1980s and continued into the ‘90s. Ellen Crystall wrote in her 1991 book, Silent Invasion (Chapter 9, page 87), “Occasionally, some of the local residents found diggings on their property – diggings large enough to have been made by machinery – but where no construction had been authorized by the owners.” She explains that the land is owned by farmers and that while some “ground markings” were present, “it was as if whatever occurred at night was removed or camouflaged against curious people like us.”

What did retired U.S. Air Force Pararescueman Scott Gearen photograph in the sky over Florida, and could something extraordinary be hiding in plain sight?

Scott joins Martin Willis to discuss his books, *Hiding in Plain Sight* and *Hiding in Plain Sight Volume II*, which document a mysterious aerial phenomenon he witnessed and photographed during a 2019 speaking engagement in Panama City Beach, Florida. Scott believes his series of photographs captures something genuinely unidentified. We’ll examine what he saw, how the images were taken, what they reveal and whether more conventional explanations can be ruled out.

Scott brings an unusually grounded perspective to the subject. He served for more than 22 years in elite U.S. Air Force special operations as a Pararescueman and Special Tactics pioneer. His career included service with JSOC, training in Rendlesham Forest, leading the first MH-53 penetration into Iraq at the beginning of Desert Storm and helping rescue two downed pilots from enemy territory in the Balkans.

We will also discuss the catastrophic 1984 parachuting accident in which Scott fell more than 3,000 feet beneath a destroyed canopy and struck the ground at approximately 100 miles per hour. During the ordeal, he experienced a profound near-death experience that transformed his understanding of consciousness, energy, human connection and what may happen at death.

Does Scott’s military experience make him an especially reliable observer? What exactly appears in his photographs? Could the object represent an unfamiliar aircraft, an atmospheric phenomenon or something even more extraordinary?

Learn more about Scott Gearen:
https://www.scottgearen.com

BIO: Scott Gearen is a retired U.S. Air Force Pararescueman (PJ) and Special Tactics pioneer with over 22 years in elite special operations, including JSOC and the first Special Tactics Team (now the 24th Special Tactics Squadron).

Enlisting from Tampa, Florida, he earned his maroon beret in 1979. His initial assignment with the 67th Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Squadron at RAF Woodbridge, UK (1980), involved extensive nighttime and daytime training in Rendlesham Forest — the site of one of the most famous UAP incidents in history.

In 1984, he joined Detachment 4 at Joint Special Operations Command, Ft. Bragg, NC, where a catastrophic military free-fall accident from 13,000 feet left him with life-threatening injuries. After an 18-month recovery, he returned to full duty — a testament to resilience that later inspired David Goggins.

Scott impacted the ground at an estimated 100 miles per hour, underwent an incredible Near-Death Experience that profoundly changed his life. Most impactful was an understanding that we are all energy – through consciousness we are all connected, and even in death, we have choices. Details of Scotts Air Force career and accident can be found at: www.scottgearen.com

Scott’s career included instructing at Pararescue School, leading the first MH-53 penetration into Iraq to launch Desert Storm, establishing USAF scuba instruction at the Army’s Key West Combat Diver School, commanding operations in the Balkans (rescuing two downed pilots from enemy territory), and post-9/11 planning for Air Force Special Operations Personnel Recovery. Medically retired in 2002, he served in diplomatic security at the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad and protected assets at the McMoRan mine in Papua, Indonesia, before retiring from DHS as a Chemical Security Inspector in 2023.

A Board member of the Pararescue Association and founding member of OMAC (dedicated to high-risk adventures and mental/physical perseverance), Scott is a sought-after speaker on survival, determination, and the unexplained.

In 2019, during a speaking engagement in Panama City Beach, Florida, he witnessed an unidentified aerial phenomenon he could not explain — an encounter documented in his books Hiding in Plain Sight and Hiding in Plain Sight Volume II. Drawing from decades of high-stakes observation in demanding environments, Scott brings a unique, grounded perspective to UAP discussions.

He resides in Minnesota. His decorations include the Meritorious Service Medal (1 OLC), Air Medal (2 OLC), and numerous others.

Australian UAP researcher and activist Grant Lavac returns to Podcast UFO for a wide-ranging discussion about Australia’s surprisingly limited public response to the UFO phenomenon. While the United States treats UAP as a potential aviation-safety and national-security concern, Australia has no dedicated reporting system for its military or civilian pilots. According to Grant, Australians who witness something unexplained may simply be advised to contact the police or a civilian UFO organization. Yet documents obtained through Freedom of Information requests reveal a more complicated story. Australia participated in the inaugural Five Eyes UAP Caucus Working Group alongside the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom and New Zealand. Is Australia privately more engaged with the subject than its officials acknowledge publicly? Grant also discusses: Australia’s lack of a formal UAP reporting and investigative system The classified Five Eyes conversation about UAP What Australian defence and intelligence officials may know His Freedom of Information discoveries The 60th anniversary of the 1966 Westall UFO incident Newly reported information involving missing police records The unexplained disappearance of pilot Frederick Valentich The need for firsthand witnesses and physical evidence Growing “disclosure fatigue” within the UFO community Whether witnesses should receive immunity to testify Preparing the public for potentially world-changing disclosure Grant is the host of The Unexplained Rundown, where he reports on Australian UAP policy, government documents and his continuing efforts to obtain greater transparency. What do you think: Is Australia genuinely ignoring the UAP issue, or is a very different conversation happening behind closed doors?

BIO:

Grant Lavac is a UAP (Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena) researcher, activist, and podcaster based in Melbourne, Australia. Fascinated by the UFO mystery since childhood, he describes himself as “an ordinary guy who believes in extraordinary things.” Lavac is a prominent advocate for greater transparency and accountability in how governments, particularly Australia’s, investigate and communicate about UAPs.

Through persistent Freedom of Information Act (FOI) requests, he has sought to uncover official records and shed light on Australia’s involvement (and lack thereof) in global UAP research efforts. He hosts The Unexplained Rundown podcast, where he discusses UAP developments, government policy, and disclosure initiatives, while also engaging with leading voices in the UFO community.

Lavac has appeared as a guest on podcasts such as That UFO Podcast, Somewhere in the Skies, and Inside The Black Vault with John Greenewald, Jr, where he continues to promote informed public dialogue and responsible investigation of the UAP phenomenon.

SHOW NOTES

Veteran UFO researcher, scientist and author Jacques Vallée joins Martin Willis for an extraordinary conversation about his newest book, Forbidden Science 7: Final Report—The Journals of Jacques Vallée 2020–2025. The seventh and final volume of Vallée’s remarkable journals chronicles a pivotal five-year period in the history of the UFO phenomenon—one marked by government hearings, whistleblower allegations, growing public discussion of UAP and renewed demands for disclosure. But after more than six decades of investigation, Vallée continues to caution that the phenomenon may be far stranger and more consequential than the conventional idea of extraterrestrial spacecraft visiting Earth. In this conversation, Jacques discusses what he witnessed behind the scenes during the rapidly changing years from 2020 through 2025, what the public still misunderstands about UFO disclosure and why revelations surrounding the phenomenon may carry profound scientific, cultural and spiritual implications. We also explore the patterns that have shaped Vallée’s work: physical evidence, close encounters, consciousness, secrecy, deception, folklore and the possibility that the phenomenon has influenced humanity throughout history. Is society prepared for what may be revealed? What have governments learned and what remains genuinely unknown? After a lifetime spent pursuing forbidden science, how does Jacques Vallée now interpret the mystery?

Official WEBSITE

BIO: Jacques F. Vallée is a principal at Documatica Financial and a diversified investor with a passion for technology startups in space development, medical equipment and information management. He earned a Bachelors Degree in mathematics from the Sorbonne, a Masters Degree in astrophysics from Lille University and a PhD in Computer Science /AI from Northwestern University (1967).

Based in Silicon Valley, Jacques has served as a founder and general partner in five venture funds, including NASA’s “Red Planet Capital”. Among the companies for which he spearheaded early-stage financings, fourteen achieved IPOs, notably Electronics for Imaging, Accuray Systems (developers of the “Cyberknife” for cancer surgery), NeoPhotonics (Nanotechnology for optical networks), Mercury Interactive, P-Com, Isocor, Regeneration Technologies, Harmonic Lightwaves, Ixys, Integrated Packaging, E.Piphany, Sangstat Medical, Com21 and Synaptic Pharmaceuticals, specialized in neurotransmitter biology. He served as a member of the Board of Directors of many of these firms.

Other companies financed by Jacques (in particular, HandyLab that produced an instrument recognized as “transformative for oncology”) were successfully acquired by Becton-Dickinson, Intel, Lucent, AOL, Cisco, Wilson Greatbatch and Intuitive Surgical.

In his early career Jacques worked at Paris Observatory and at the astronomy department of the University of Texas in Austin, where he co-developed the first computer-based map of planet Mars. Moving to California after management positions with Shell and RCA, he implemented (with Jake Feinler) the first Network Information Center on the Arpanet and later served as a principal investigator for DARPA and NSF. Jacques has published several textbooks about computer networking and has maintained a long-term interest in unidentified flying objects, currently (2020) serving on the expert committee of the French CNES tasked with studying such reports. He received the Jules Verne Prize for his first science-fiction novel (in French). He resides between San Francisco and Paris. He has two children and three grandchildren.

Mail may be addressed to Jacques Vallée P.O. Box 641650 San Francisco, CA 94164

SHOW NOTES

On April 24, 1964, in Socorro, New Mexico, Sgt. Lonnie Zamora of the Socorro Police reported seeing an egg-shaped object and two small humanoids dressed in white coveralls. On April 24, 1964, in Newark Valley, New York, farmer Gary Wilcox reported seeing an egg-shaped object and two small humanoids dressed in white coveralls. The difference is, Wilcox claimed he talked with the creatures he saw.

The first investigator on the scene was Wilcox’s neighbor, Priscilla J. Baldwin. She had an interest in UFOs and spoke with Wilcox on April 28^th. National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena advisor Walter Webb interviewed Wilcox on November 8, 1964, and there is a NICAP file on the incident.

Dr. Berthold Eric Schwartz investigated this case extensively and wrote an article (page 20 of the pdf) about it headlined, “Gary Wilcox and the UFOnauts,” published in the September 1969 Flying Saucer Review Special Issue 3. According to him in his article, material from Baldwin and Webb was made available to him, and he interviewed Wilcox along with his wife, friends, neighbors, and members of his family.

Schwartz, an occasional contributor to FSR, was a psychiatrist, and he begins his article advocating for the psychiatric study of UFO witnesses. He then tells the reader that he had read about Wilcox’s case in various publications and thought it was “rather far-fetched.” According to him, he became interested in it when he was put in touch with a former neighbor of Wilcox’s (a computer programmer who had worked on the Apollo simulator project) who vouched for Wilcox’s credibility.

Wilcox’s story first comes out in notes from Baldwin that are presented in the section headed, “I – Miss Baldwin’s Role.” The notes are in the form of an interview with Wilcox followed by a narrative account of Baldwin’s investigation and the involvement of the local sheriff’s department.

According to Baldwin’s notes, at 10:00 a.m. on April 24, Wilcox was driving his tractor spreading manure in one of his fields when he “noticed a white (or shiny) object” just inside the woods above the field. He drove up to get a closer look and thought it might be a fuel tank or a fuselage from an airplane. He said he “thumped it and kicked it” and it “felt like metallic canvas.” Wilcox said later that he wasn’t sure if it was on the ground or hovering.

Then, two “men” came out from under the object. They were carrying a metallic-looking tray that was filled with soil, leaves, and alfalfa. Wilcox was scared but also had the thought that someone was playing a trick on him (he told Schwartz he thought it might have been for the TV show Candid Camera). The men said, “Do not be afraid,” and asked him what he was doing. Their voices seemed to come from their chests and “had an eerie Sound.” Wilcox said he was spreading manure, and a conversation began that lasted for two hours.

It came out that the creatures had been watching Wilcox “for quite a while” and were interested in soil and “organic substances” because Mars (apparently where they came from) was rocky and unfit for agriculture. They wanted to know more about fertilizer and seemed unfamiliar with cows.

The creatures said that because of all the objects being sent into space from Earth, “Mars and Earth will be trading environments.” They also prophesied that within a year, astronauts Glenn and Grissom and two cosmonauts from Russia would die “due to exposure from space.”

Wilcox asked if he could go with them and was told he couldn’t because the atmosphere was too thin. He offered to get them a bag of fertilizer, but they didn’t want to wait, and as Wilcox watched, they took off in the craft, which made a “burring and swishing sound.” There were no marks left from the object, but Wilcox noted there was some red dust in the area that he thought had something to do with propulsion.

Later that afternoon, Wilcox brought a bag of fertilizer to the site and left it by a tree. When he came back the next day, it was gone.

According to Baldwin, she went to Wilcox’s place on April 29, and he took her to the site on his tractor (spreading fertilizer on the way) after finishing his afternoon chores. Baldwin took some pictures and collected some leaves and rocks. It had rained and there was no trace of red dust.

Baldwin contacted the sheriff’s office and reported the incident to Sheriff Paul Taylor. Eventually, on May 1, an officer, George Williams, pulled up in Baldwin’s driveway. When it was confirmed that she was the one who called, he told her he had gone to Wilcox’s place and couldn’t find him. Baldwin agreed to go back with him, and when they got there, they found Wilcox in his barn.

Williams briefly questioned Wilcox about his experience and then Baldwin took Williams to the site as Wilcox didn’t want to interrupt his chores. When they came back, it was arranged that Wilcox would go to the sheriff’s office that evening. Baldwin gave Williams her notes and “they evidently were used to crosscheck his (Wilcox’s) story.”

Sheriff Taylor wrote a report which includes William’s report and Wilcox’s signed statement, and it is presented in the section headed, “II – Sheriff Taylor’s Report.”

Williams described Wilcox as a hard worker who didn’t seem to be “unstable” or “mentally disturbed in any way.” He described the area where Wilcox said the craft had been as wet. He wrote that the surrounding area was dry and he speculated that the wetness might have been due to “a spring or ground formation.” He notes that there was only one set of tractor tire tracks when there should have been two: one when Wilcox dropped off the bag of fertilizer, and one when Wilcox brought Baldwin to the site.

Wilcox’s statement has the same story he told Baldwin, but he goes into more detail about the humanoids. According to him, they were 4 feet tall, had no faces or hair, and didn’t seem to have shoulders. Their suits were a “whitish-aluminum-tint” color, had no seams, pockets, or stitching, and there was a wrinkle at the elbow when they moved their arms. He alludes to the prophecy about the astronauts and cosmonauts saying he was told “our people that had entered into space would not survive over a year.”

In the section headed, “III – Psychiatric Study,” Schwartz describes Wilcox as “of old American stock” and says “his family has an excellent reputation in the community.” According to Schwartz, Wilcox had “no particular interest in UFOs” or any other “exotic subject,” and he and his family had no history of paranormal experiences. Wilcox’s brother, Floyd, reported that Gary had turned down a good sum of money for the rights to his story as well as money for lectures about his experience. Wilcox did give permission for his story to be published in a scientific journal following a psychiatric examination.

In the final section headed, “Discussion and Summary,” Schwartz notes the oddity of Zamora’s report coming on the same day as Wilcox’s and says that Wilcox didn’t hear about it until “several days later.” He re-emphasizes the unlikelihood that someone with Wilcox’s psychological makeup would invent such a story but notes the discrepancy of there being only one set of tractor tire tracks.

Schwartz addresses the prophecy that two astronauts and two cosmonauts would die within the year following the encounter. He points out that Virgil Grissom died in the January 27, 1967 Apollo capsule fire along with Edward White and Roger Chafee and that cosmonaut Vladimir Komorov died on April 24, 1967, died two years to the day after Wilcox’s reported encounter, when the parachutes of his capsule failed as he was returning to Earth.

As for how to interpret Wilcox’s reported experience, Schwartz refers to John Keel* and says “what was supposed to have happened is entirely an open question,” meaning that the creatures may have lied to Wilcox or manipulated his mind. He says, however, “Unfortunately, the facts do not justify much speculation in this regard.”

* Keel often wrote, particularly in his 1975 book, The Mothman Prophecies, that there was a trickster element involved in contact episodes.