Show Notes, Kathleen Marden Episode 17.

Listen to podcast here.

 

Martin Willis: Hi, everyone, I’m with Kathleen Marden. She is a UFO abduction researcher, author, and lecturer. How you doing, Kathleen?

 

Kathleen Marden: I’m fine, thanks. Nice to be with you, today.

 

Martin: Yes, thanks so much for meeting up with me, and it’s lucky we’re not all that far apart. I live up in Maine and you’re down here, in Massachusetts for the summer, so it worked out great.

 

Kathleen: Yes, I am. Yes.

 

Martin: Yeah. Years ago, I remember when the movie came out in 1975, The Interrupted Journey –

 

Kathleen: It was the UFO incident based upon the book The Interrupted Journey, by John G. Fuller.

 

Martin: I see. Right, and Betty and Barney Hill. Now, Betty was you aunt.

 

Kathleen: Yes, she was.

 

Martin: Yes. I would consider both that abduction and Travis Walton the most solid abductions that I know of, anyway.

 

Kathleen: I agree with you.

 

Martin: I’d love to have Travis on the show I have. We’ve had some conversation back and forth, but, hopefully, he’ll be on soon.

Kathleen: Well, he’s a great guy so I hope he comes on you show.

 

Martin: Yeah. I want to ask you, first of all – now, that happened in 1961 and I want to find out what it was like, for you, to first hear about this from your aunt, and how did all that come about?

 

Kathleen: Well, my aunt was my mother’s oldest sister. They were very close, so when Betty and Barney returned home after having a close encounter with a very large, silent, hovering disc that was, definitely, not from this planet Betty called my mother, and I was seated in the same room. It was September 20th, 1961, so I overheard their conversation, then my mother filled me in on what Betty said, and, within two days, my family went to Portsmouth and, first–hand, I heard the story and I saw some of the evidence, as well.

 

Martin: Wow! The car?

 

Kathleen: I saw the spots on the trunk of the car, yes. Very shiny, concentric circles that caused a compass needle to spin and spin.

 

Martin: Wow! And, at that point I know under hypnosis they really became shook up, and stuff. Was she very – how was she, at that point – at first?

 

Kathleen: At first, she was very concerned, and excited, as well. This was something entirely new to her. She and my uncle had never read anything on the topic, had never had an interest in the topic, before, so she was very curious and concerned, also, about the possibility of contamination, because that craft hovered only a hundred or two hundred feet above them, so they were very concerned about that.

 

Martin: Now, I know there’s a lot of misinformation out there about this case. Just for the odd chance that someone might be listening in Europe, somewhere, that has never heard this story, in its entirety –  it’s the first, known, abduction case* – a landmark case, I would say. Can you, in a nutshell, explain the whole situation?

 

Kathleen: Yes. Betty and Barney were returning home from a brief vacation. They were driving during the night, because there was a hurricane coming up the coast and they wanted to return home before the hurricane struck. They were driving through upstate New Hampshire when they saw a new light in the sky. The odd thing about it was that it was flying very rapidly upward, and Betty attempted to identify this. In all, they got out of the car three times to look a this craft as it came in closer and closer. It, finally, surged ahead and hovered directly over the top of their vehicle causing my uncle to have to stop the car. He got out of it, took his binoculars and his pistol, as well, looked up at it as this huge disc hovered only about a hundred feet above him. It shifted location to an adjacent field and, there, he looked at it through binoculars and observed 9 to 11 figures looking down at him. The craft, then, tilted a little bit in his direction, as most of those being went to, what appeared to be, a panel on the backside of the circular hallway, in the craft, that went around the circumference of the craft. One remained at the window, and it seemed to hold a special attraction for Barney. It stared down and this being’s appearance caused Barney to become terribly frightened. He knew, immediately, that it was, somehow, not human. He had full conscious recall of observing these beings from the tops of their heads down to their knees. He could see that they were dressed in black, shiny uniforms. They moved in unison. They were, as I said before, not human. The one staring down at Barney caused him to feel that he was about to be captured, he said: like a bug in a net, and he became terribly frightened, broke away, and ran back to the car screaming to Betty that they had to get out of there or they were going to be captured. The craft then shifted location from the field to just above their car as Barney went speeding down route 3, which was the major highway at that time in northern New Hampshire. The craft was hovering over the top of the car. Betty rolled down the window and looked up and all she could see was blackness. It was like a black void. She should have seen the stars. She should have seen the moon. It was a bright, starry night, but she didn’t, and she and Barney, later, realized that the craft was hovering just above their vehicle. This is when they heard a series of code–like buzzing sounds that seemed to be striking the trunk of the car. They caused the car to vibrate and for a tingling sensation to pass through Betty’s and Barney’s bodies. The next thing they knew they found themselves 35 miles south on route 3. They had very, very little recall for what happened in the interim. They were startled awake by a second series of these beeping or buzzing sounds, and they recalled that they had encountered a roadblock somewhere along the way. They didn’t know where or when. They, also, recalled observing a fiery orb in the road, and Barney remembered that it seemed to be moving, but he wasn’t moving. It was very, very perplexing. He and Betty, then, continued on home. They, really, were seeking human contact. It was the middle of the night. They couldn’t find a restaurant that was open and, so, they just drove to their home in Portsmouth, and when they arrived they realized that they were later than they had anticipated, even allowing for those three stops. It would be two months before they retraced that route and discovered that it was a full two hours that they were missing.

 

Martin: Wow! Boy, I just learned a few things that I didn’t know that was really interesting. Now, I know Carl Sagan wrote something on this and there was a lot of conjecture, on his part, that Stan Friedman tried to correct but did not get corrected. Has there been a lot of publications, out there, with misinformation about this?

 

Kathleen: Yes. There have – there has been an incredible amount of misinformation regarding this case. I have all of the the original records, all of the investigation reports, and the original statements made by Betty and Barney, so I have documented evidence of what was correct and what was not correct information, and I use that information when I wrote the book Captured: The Betty And Barney Hill UFO Experience. My purpose in writing that – one of my purposes was in order to set the record straight, to separate fact from fiction, regarding their case.

 

Martin: Now, did you write that with Stan?

 

Kathleen: I wrote, about, 85% of the book. Stanton Friedman wrote two chapters – one on the star map – he was instrumental in that investigation, and, also, he wrote one called Disbelievers And Disinformants. He also served the very important purpose of vetting my work for accuracy, and I wanted to know that that book was entirely unbiased, and, in fact, he commented that he was pleased that I was willing to show Betty, warts and all.

 

Martin: Now, the star map that she wrote – that’s an incredible story that – wasn’t it an astronomer that, actually, figured that out, later on, or something like that?

 

Kathleen: Well, first let me tell you a little bit about the star map. When Betty was on the craft, her examination had been completed and she was left alone in the room with the person that she calls the leader. We know, today, that that is the escort. Abduction experiencers see that person over and over again as they’re abducted, but she said to him, in, sort of, an understatement: well, I know you’re not from around here, where are you from? And, so, he produced a three–dimensional star map. It appeared, sort of, like a holographic image, and on that star map there were a couple of large circles, about the size of nickels, and then there were smaller circles, and they were connected, some by solid lines, some by dots, and under hypnosis with Dr. Benjamin Simon Betty was instructed to draw that star map if she could remember it accurately and if it didn’t trouble her, too much. She went home and, almost, through automatic writing, you might say, she drew that star map. It was published in John Fuller’s Interrupted Journey and Marjorie Fish, who is a brilliant woman from Ohio and an amateur astronomer, saw that map. She was highly skeptical, but she reasoned that if that place actually existed in our galaxy she might be able to find it, so she set out to do just that. In all, she built 26 models of our local galactic neighborhood, out 55 light years, looking for the location of the stars on this map. She thought she would have many finds. In the end, there was only one. The great difficulty she faced is that astronomical catalogs were not readily available to her, so she had to go to the university and hand–copy all of the distance data, and then she went back to her home and constructed these models. Imagine the math, alone, that she did to put every star in its proper location, and in 1972 she finally had a match, and only one match, after looking for several years. The interesting thing about that match was that all of the stars, on Betty’s map, were sun–like stars, although only 5% of the stars in that neighborhood were sun–like.

 

Martin: Wow!

 

Kathleen: She only found that match after three stars were listed in that catalog that had not been listed in other catalogs. We didn’t even know about them back when Betty drew that map.

 

Martin: Wow! That is totally amazing! Now, let’s go back to where she contacted your mother and you went to the house, and all that. How long was it before she actually reported it and how did she go about reporting the incident?

 

Kathleen: Betty reported the incident on the evening that they arrived home from their trip. She had contacted my mother and the former Chief Of Police in Newton, New Hampshire was at the house. He was my father’s best friend, and he would stop by for coffee on his way home from work, so she told him about that and he said that Pease Air Force Base in Newington, New Hampshire had instructed the local police departments that if anyone had observed  a UFO they should report it to Pease Air Force Base, so Betty called the base. She spoke to them, briefly, that night and then the next day they called back and they spoke to Betty and Barney at length about their sighting, so the report was, actually, filed on September 21, 1961.

 

Martin: Wow! And, at that time, so the military – the Air Force was involved.

 

Kathleen: Yes.

 

Martin: Was Blue Book active?

 

Kathleen: Yes, it was Project Blue Book. There was a Project Blue Book record report.

 

Martin: That’s what that was?

 

Kathleen: Yes.

 

Martin: And was there, at any time, anyone trying to suppress any information or was it allowed to come out in the public?

 

Kathleen: Well, it was very interesting. It didn’t come out in the public for many, many years.

 

Martin: Really?

 

Kathleen: Dr. James McDonald – you might be familiar with him. He was the former co–chairman – had been chairman of the Department Of Meteorology at the University Of Arizona, and he was an avid researcher, probably the best UFO researcher that ever lived – incredibly bright man, and he found it in the Blue Book files. He found that report and gave that report to Betty. It was a very interesting thing about that report, and that is in the very first hand–written report air intercept radar was checked off leading me to believe that they might have scrambled a jet after this craft. There was a radar report that it appeared on radar at 2:14 AM and that would have been about the time that Betty and Barney were released from capture, so all of this is really intriguing, to me, but there was a cover–up. They said that it was due to an atmospheric inversion, temperature inversion, and grand clutter –

 

Martin: Swamp gas!

 

Kathleen: – the planet, everything but swamp gas, the planet Jupiter, an advertising light, you name it – it was list after list. In the end they, really, could not identify what it was. They, also, initially stated that there was a strong inversion in the Lincoln, New Hampshire region that night, and so I was very curious about this. I wanted to know if it was a cover–up or if it was true, so I contacted the chief meteorologist at the Mount Washington Weather Station, and I, also, contacted a chief meteorologist for a television station, and asked both of them to look into their archival records and to, just, let me know what the weather was like that night. I found that there was no inversion that night in the Lincoln, New Hampshire area, and the television meteorologist, who looked in the archives of the U. S. Weather Service, stated that, in fact, the conditions were just the opposite for an inversion.

Martin: Wow! Isn’t that something. Would you say that there’s any other rumors or misinformation out there that should be cleared up? I mean, things that you hear over and over again that are, perhaps, not right.

 

Kathleen: Oh, absolutely. One of those things is – I hear over and over again that Betty and Barney merely saw a light in the sky. I hear that Betty was an avid, lifelong UFO advocate or –

 

Martin: Enthusiast.

 

Kathleen: – enthusiast, that’s the best word for it. That is totally false. I read, over and over again, that they didn’t even entertain the idea that it might have been a UFO until Betty had a series of dreams ten days later, and that all of the information came out of those dreams. It’s totally false. I have the records. I just told you about how – the reports that they made, immediately. On September 26, 1961, she sat down, after reading her first book on UFOs and wrote a letter to the National Investigations Committee On Ariel Phenomena, and in that letter she gave detailed information about what she and Barney observed. This was even before she had her first dream.

 

Martin: Wow, so, this story didn’t come out for several years. What was it like for you, at that time, knowing this?

 

Kathleen: Well, I had to maintain secrecy, and I knew why. Betty and Barney were prominent people in the state of New Hampshire. She was a social worker for the state. He was very active in civil rights in the state. He was legal redress to the NAACP. He, also, was appointed by the governor of the state of New Hampshire to serve on the U. S. Civil Rights Committee State Advisory Committee. He was Rockingham County Community Action Programs Chairman Of The Board Of Directors. They had worked on a literacy program in the state for voters’ rights, so the last thing they possibly could have wanted was to be associated with a UFO abduction or close encounter. It would have destroyed their credibility, and when that became public, as a violation of confidentiality, it was very upsetting to Betty and Barney and the family. We met as a family and we discussed what they should do next.

 

Martin: How did it change their lives?

 

Kathleen: It, really, was very distracting for both of them, in a sense, because they were so committed to improving the conditions of people in the United States and in the state of New Hampshire, and, so, it was very distracting. They did a lot of radio and television programs, then. The book: The Interrupted Journey was published, and they had to promote that. Barney was very driven in the area of civil rights and politics and, I think, if he had lived he probably would have gone into politics. All of that was, pretty much, demolished by the announcement that they had been abducted by aliens and it did refocus them and drove their life in a different direction, where, in a sense, they became celebrities and appeared on television shows talking about their experience. It also reduced their credibility.

 

Martin: Right, before I get into some other questions, here, one last question on this. How accurate – the movie in 1975, made for TV with James Earl Jones. I thought he did very good job.

 

Kathleen: I agree.

 

Martin: He’s a great actor. How accurate would you say that movie was?

 

Kathleen: The major problem I have with that movie is it leads the viewer to believe that Betty and Barney had almost no conscious recall of their experience when, in fact, the documented information that they provided in the very beginning, clearly, demonstrates that they consciously recalled everything except for the abduction, itself. So, I have a problem, there. I thought it was a fantastic movie. I thought that James Earl Jones captured Barney’s personality very well, but Estelle Parsons, really, didn’t capture Betty’s personality. Betty was an assertive person. She had a very good sense of self-esteem. She was very intelligent, and I didn’t care to see Betty portrayed as a little, helpless 60s woman.

 

Martin: Now, there’s – when I spoke with Stanton Friedman, a while back, he said that there’s a show coming up – a movie coming up.

 

Kathleen: Yes, our book: Captured! The Betty And Barney Hill UFO Experience has been optioned by Bryce Zabel in Hollywood and he is, currently, working on the screenplay for a movie on our book.

 

Martin: Any idea if that’s going to come out, at some point? Any projection of date or anything?

 

Kathleen: No, there’s no projection of date, at this point. It’s a fairly long process and after the screenplay is written in, then it has to be sold in Hollywood for a movie to be made, so I’m keeping my fingers crossed.

 

Martin: I wonder who’ll play the parts this time.

 

Kathleen: I wonder.

 

Martin: Denzel Washington, maybe. You never know.

 

Kathleen: Could be. You never know.

 

Martin: Let’s talk about some other landmark abduction cases.

 

Kathleen: Sure.

 

Martin: Now, Travis Walton. You know Travis?

 

Kathleen: Yes, I know Travis.

 

Martin: Yeah, and have you spoke to him at great length?

 

Kathleen: Yes, I have.

 

Martin: Wow, can you talk a little bit about that and any other landmark cases that you’d consider?

 

Kathleen: Travis is a very credible man. There has been a lot of debunking information designed to destroy his case, but he is an upstanding man in his community. He’s credible, and that case is so impressive because he was, actually, missing in the White Mountains of Arizona in November of the year, and he would have died from hypothermia if he had actually been on the the ground. I’ve also spoken to Steve Pierce who was with Travis, one of the members of that logging crew, and his – he expressed his concern, to me, that they were, actually, under suspicion for murder, and were – it was very upsetting to them. They hoped that Travis would be found. It was – they ended up taking lie detector tests. All of them, except for one, passed the lie detector test and the one who didn’t pass didn’t fail, either. It was equivocal because he became angry. He was afraid that – he had been in trouble with the law, before, and he had an attitude about the police, anyway, and, so, he, simply, decided not to continue with the lie detector test. It wasn’t that he was lying it’s that he didn’t continue. Eventually, all of them retook – the ones that were equivocal retook the lie detector test and passed, so, that’s pretty good evidence. You might say that with one lie detector test it can’t be used in a court of law, it really isn’t valid, but when you get that many individuals taking lie detector tests and they all pass I think that it’s a pretty good indication that they’re telling the truth.

 

Martin: So, what are some other, what you would consider, landmark abductions?

 

Kathleen: Well, there was, certainly, the Charlie Hickson/Calvin Parker case in Pascagoula, Mississippi. I believe that was 1973. Two men fishing on the river and a UFO came in and was hovering just above them, took them, floated them onto the craft, and gave them physical examinations and, then, they were released. The important thing about this is that Charlie and Calvin were taken to the police station, after this, and placed in a room. They didn’t know there was a tape recorder in the room recording their statements. They got down on their knees and prayed. They were so upset and frightened by the experience that they had. These men were not lying, just as Travis Walton was not lying in his case. There was a case of three women in Casey County, Kentucky. This happened only a couple of months after Travis Walton’s abduction. Elaine Thomas, Louise Smith, and Mona Stafford, and they had been out to dinner, and were driving home. It was about, oh, 10:00 at night – 10:30, driving home, and a craft approached them very rapidly. At first they thought it was a plane in free fall crashing to the ground, but it stopped right above their car, and then it moved over and traveled next to their car as they were driving down the highway. It – there was – projected a light inside their car that caused them to become hot and tingling, and then their car started to move 80 miles an hour forward. They couldn’t control it. They tried to put on the brake. They couldn’t control the vehicle, and then, all of a sudden, it stopped and it was being pulled backward, and it seemed to be bumping along something. The next thing they knew they were several miles down the road coming into their hometown. They had conscious recall of observing this craft. It was also observed by other witnesses who said that they observed it, as well. The women, eventually, underwent hypnosis. They all recalled having physical examinations onboard the craft. Very – another important case, in my estimation.

 

Martin: Between the time when Betty and Barney were abducted and the news of that was suppressed had any other abduction happened before that was released?

 

Kathleen: Not that I’m aware of. Of course, there might be people, today, who are remembering abduction experiences in that time frame, but people, today, tend not to speak publicly about their abduction experiences, because they have been attacked. They’ve lost their jobs. They’ve lost their credibility. It just isn’t a very good thing to do, so, yes, there are probably others in that time frame, and people come forward and talk to me confidentially, quite often, but the next publicly known case occurred in 1969 at the Buff Ledge Girls’ Camp in upstate Vermont. It was a girls’ swimming camp and the campers had gone to a swim meet, that night. There were two counselors that were left at the camp. There was the water skiing instructor, a young woman who went to Smith College and was working there in the summer, and then there was a sixteen–year–old boy who cleaned up the equipment along the edge of the lake. It was the first time that they had, actually, had an opportunity to sit down and talk to each other and they were out on the dock. It was dusk and, as they were looking out at the water on Lake Champlain, they saw what appeared to be what we think of as a mothership. It was this huge, cigar–like craft, and out of that flew three discs. They zigzagged around a little bit and then two flew in one direction, and one came toward them. The one that came toward them came above the water, and then it ascended vertically and then descended and plunged into the lake, then it moved – came out and moved along toward them and stopped about 15 feet away from them. They were, just, awestruck as they were looking at this craft. The sixteen–year–old boy remembered observing non–humans in the craft who seemed to send him the telepathic message that he would not be harmed – that they would be okay, and then the craft went just above then heads of the young man and the young woman. The young woman seemed to be in a state of shock. He pushed both of them down to the deck on this dock, and the next thing they knew they heard voices. The girls had returned from the swim meet and the craft was leaving and they could see it flying away in the distance.

 

Martin: So there was a time–lapse.

 

Kathleen: Another time–lapse. It’s usually about –

 

Martin: Seems pretty common.

 

Kathleen: – hour and a half, two hours of missing time that people experience.

 

Martin: Right. I watched a show on UFOs and abductions and there was a psychiatrist saying that the hypnotherapist was leading people into believing about these abductions, and what do you say to that speculation?

 

Kathleen: What I can say about that is: look at the case of Betty and Barney Hill. Dr. Benjamin Simon was one of the leading psychiatrists in this country. He knew nothing about UFOs. He did not believe that Betty and Barney could possibly have encountered alien beings from another planet in our star system, and he attempted to lead Betty and Barney away from that idea. He hypnotized both of them, separately, for a period of six months. He imposed amnesia at the end of each session so they couldn’t converse with each other. They couldn’t contaminate each other’s information, and they told the same story, and it was different, in many respects, from the story that Betty told about in her dream account of the UFO abduction. Her abduction was different from her dreams, so was Barney’s, so here’s an example of two individuals who were led away from the idea. They had no prior knowledge. They were the first.* They had no prior knowledge of what an abduction was like. You can say that, well, yes, if someone, today, really wanted to be abducted and they had read everything they could possibly read on the subject so they had detailed information about what it was like, and if they had a hypnotherapist who was very invested in the idea that this individual did have an abduction that’s possible that you could confabulate that sort of thing, but that, certainly, would be unprofessional and people who work with abduction experiencers, on a regular basis, will not work with anyone, generally, unless there is convincing evidence that they actually have been abducted, and that that person hasn’t read everything there is to read about abductions, so there are safeguards in place.

 

Martin: I know I said I wasn’t going to ask you any more questions about Betty and Barney, but I just wanted to ask you one more thing.

 

Kathleen: Okay.

 

Martin: What was it like listening to all of those recordings?

 

Kathleen: Well, I can tell you that, initially, I think I felt traumatized by it as I listened to them reexperiencing the trauma of being taken by non–humans, so it was extremely difficult for me, at first, and I’ve listened to those tapes dozens of times, now. In fact, I transcribed every statement that they made for my book: Captured! The Betty And Barney Hill UFO Experience, so now I can look at it without being distressed, but it was difficult, at first.

 

Martin: Right, I’m sure it was, so, what are you involved in these days?

 

Kathleen: Well, I am an independent abduction investigator and researcher. I’m working on another book on – with Denise Stoner, who was Florida MUFON’s chief investigator, on two very important abduction cases, and we’re hoping that that will be published next year. We also are working on a research study on commonalities among abduction experiencers, and we have three questionnaires. They’re posted on my website at kathleen–marden.com. One is a 45–question, multiple choice questionnaire. It’s pretty general. We’re attempting to draw commonalities or identify little-known commonalities among abduction experiencers, then there is a 16–question questionnaire that is more open–ended, fill–in type on ET technology observed on the craft, and then there is one that’s about 20– questions and it’s for people who have never had an abduction experience. We want to have a control group, here, so we’ll know that these commonalities are not common across the general population.

 

Martin: Wow, and it seems like there’s, like, hundreds and hundreds of cases is that – or even is it thousands?

 

Kathleen: I would say thousands of cases across the world, around the world, and people are reporting the same information, even though much of it isn’t publicized. Those of us who work within the field keep in – certain information secret.

 

Martin: Wow! Now, have you ever had this happen where you start interviewing someone and realize that they’re full of baloney, and you walk away? Has that happened?

 

Kathleen: Well, I try to be polite, but I do interview many, many people and sometimes it becomes apparent to me that the person is probably someone who would like, very much, to have had an experience, and that, perhaps, their creative imagination is running away with them, but for the most part that’s not the case. Most people come to me very, very concerned. They’ve had a close encounter. They’ve had missing time, and, after that initial close encounter, they might be taken from their homes, so it, generally, happens the first time is from an external environment, such as the car, camping, fishing, hunting, whatever, and then, after that, it’s from the home.

 

Martin: What about people that are repeatedly abducted? Do you believe that’s a real happening?

 

Kathleen: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely –

 

Martin: And why would you think that –

 

Kathleen: – this seems to be a long-term study.

 

Martin:The thing that comes to question in mind, for me, is: you picture, like, say, the aliens are coming from another star system to here, and they would go to the exact same place and abduct the same person. I mean, I’m just trying to figure –

 

Kathleen: Well, let’s think about this, for a minute, and let’s think that they’re probably not flying back and forth from their star system every time they come to abduct somebody. They’re probably in large ships, either under our oceans or outside Earth’s atmosphere, and they’re probably living there in very large numbers. They might even be on one of our planets in a device where they make all of the energy they need. They can sustain life in that kind of environment, and, perhaps, go back and forth between our planet and their planet very rarely, or infrequently, so let’s think about that, and then they just have their smaller models, and they bring those smaller models down when they’re going to abduct a person. Now, we know that they are inserting implants into abduction experiencers. That happens over and over again, and it seems that they use these as tracking devices, so that they can take the same person, over and over again, throughout their lifetime.

 

Martin: If you were to speculate, why would you think that they would want to see the same person twice?

 

Kathleen: Well, for one thing, we know that thousands of individuals have stated that they’re being used for the extraction of reproductive material – ova and sperm, and, so, they might want to take the same individuals for that purpose: to grow fetuses onboard their craft in tubes or cylinders. They take tissue samples from individuals and they – I’m not sure what they’re using these tissue samples for, but people have, sort of, punched biopsy marks, that – and wake up with patterned bruises and patterned needle marks on their bodies. I can’t tell you why they’re taking the same individuals over and over again, but it’s something that they are doing. They seem to be following genetic lines, in many cases, where they will take, say, the mother, move along the maternal genetic line, take the daughter, take the granddaughter, and so on and so forth, so they appear to be doing a longitudinal genetic study, maybe biological study, maybe sociological study.

 

Martin: Now, what’s the oldest person you’ve ever heard of being abducted?

 

Kathleen: In my study I believe I had a person who was very close to 80 years old –

 

Martin: Really?

 

Kathleen: – who has been abducted. As people grow older they tend not to be abducted as frequently. This 80–year–old was abducted much earlier in her life and visited, from time to time.

 

Martin: Now, you hear a lot of these people say that they floated right through the wall and, like, solid objects –

 

Kathleen: Yes.

 

Martin: – and there’s a lot of people saying that.

 

Kathleen: Seems impossible, doesn’t it?

 

Martin: Yeah, it does.

 

Kathleen: Well –

 

Martin: The whole thing does.

 

Kathleen: I had to question that, myself, and, so, I interviewed a theoretical physicist and I asked him if that was possible, and he said that yes, it is. In fact, we have the math to do that, and we’ve done it on a very small scale in a laboratory, and what the ETs would have to do is – let’s say, for example, their vibrational frequency –

 

Martin: I was going to ask you that.

 

Kathleen: – was of a certain rate. Okay, and, let’s say, maybe it was higher than our own. Then, in order to move us through a solid structure, they would have to change the vibrational frequency of the solid structure to match their own and also the human’s vibrational frequency to match their own.

 

Martin: Wouldn’t it be easier to open the window?

 

Kathleen: It would be, and when that occurs, then you can move solid matter through solid matter. Now, why would they do that, and what impact does it have on the human body? I think that it’s probably less risky to do it that way than to, actually, go into people’s homes, to land their craft on the ground the way they did years ago, and walk people out to the craft. The consequence, it seems, of what they’re doing, possibly, is they’re making people ill, and I can tell you that on the study that Denise Stoner and I are doing nearly 40% of the abduction experiencers have a formal diagnosis of chronic fatigue and immune dysfunction syndrome or chronic mononucleosis. Less that 1% of the general population have been diagnosed with that same disease. That’s very significant.

 

Martin: Wow! You would think that it wouldn’t be just one species of aliens abducting people, but, perhaps, from other star systems and other species.

 

Kathleen: Yes, that is correct, and abduction experiencers report the most prevalent species that have been taken them are what we call the Greys or Zetas, and there are two different sizes. There is the 3 foot tall Greys with the grey skin and very large heads and black, shiny eyes. Then there are the taller ones that are 4 and 1/2 to 5 feet tall. The small ones seem to be the assistants. The taller ones are the escorts and the physicians, so you have the Greys’ experiments. Then individuals often, today, report what they call a mantis–type being, and the mantis–type being seems to be highly telepathic, empathetic, very frightening to look upon, but people seem to have a positive attitude toward this being. They tend to be physicians and might work alongside the Greys or the Zetas in what they’re doing. They’re much taller than the Zetas. They might be 5 and 1/2 to 6 feet tall, and some people have reported that they seem to be able to fold their legs up almost like – think of a grasshopper – to make themselves shorter. It’s really bizarre to think of that, and they might even have an exoskeleton. There’s another type –

 

Martin: Like an insect.

 

Kathleen: – the bad boys of the neighborhood, I call them, and those are the reptilians or the reptoids, and I get – I receive mixed reports about them, and they tend to be about 5 and 1/2 to 6 or even 7 feet tall, frightening in their demeanor. They tend to engage in sexual activity with humans. That seems to be a focus with reptilians, and it’s very, very distressing for people who are taken by them, who consider themselves to have been raped, yet some people have even reported positive relationships with reptilian beings, as well. A few have reported that to me.

 

Martin: Yeah, well, we’re just about out of time, here, but I had one more question. Has anyone that you’ve ever talked to had received any telepathic message about where we’re going as Earthlings and our planet, or anything like that?

 

Kathleen: The messages that humans receive tend not to be very specific. People are shown images, either on screens or these images that just projected into their minds, where they see destruction. They see cataclysmic scenes, such as volcanos or tsunamis and that sort of thing, and then they’ve come to pass, as we know, already. Some people are, also, shown what appears to be a distant planet that is brown and appears incapable of harboring life, and so I wonder if that is their planet, and that’s one reason that, perhaps, they’re probably living out somewhere in our solar system on a very large craft.

 

Martin: Wow, very interesting, or that could be our planet in the future.

 

Kathleen: I suppose it could be, but I don’t –

 

Martin: I hope not.

 

Kathleen: – want to entertain that idea.

 

Martin: Yeah, if we lose our magnetic sphere, however you say that –

 

Kathleen: Yes, our magnetic field, if it collapses.

 

Martin: This has been absolutely fascinating. Thank you so much.

 

Kathleen: Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.

 

Martin: And you have a lot of things going on this year.

 

Kathleen: I certainly do. You can go to my website at kathleen, with a K, hyphen marden, M–A–R–D– E–N. There is a list of the events that I’ll be speaking at. There are articles that you can read. You can purchase autographed copies of my books and DVDs.

 

Martin: All right. Great, so this is Martin Willis with Kathleen Marden and that’s it for today.

 

The End

 

* Although the Betty and Barney Hill abduction case was a significant case, in terms of evidence and effect on popular culture, some claim that it was not the first alien abduction case. Alien abduction researcher Budd Hopkins is one person who has made this claim, as he claimed to have studied alien abduction cases that go back to the 1920s:

 

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