Show Notes, Chris Lambright, Bennewitz, 29.

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Martin Willis: So I have Chris Lambright on Skype, again. How you doing for session 2?


Chris Lambright: Hello, still here. Thank you.


Martin: Now, your book we talked about last time it will just – if someone’s just listening to this segment, not the last one, your book is X Descending. It’s found on your website, which is –


Chris:, but you can also find it on Amazon, or on Apple’s iBookstore.


Martin: A very interesting book, well written, about your account of all the in–depth research you’ve done that – what did this take, 10 years of your time to do?


Chris: Well, the book certainly did, and, of course, then it’s all the years before that just building, learning what was out there. Unfortunately, or rather fortunately, that’s one of the benefits of time is a lot of things came out. Bill Moore gave his speech, other things happened subsequent, being able to track some of the research that Myrabo has been working on, and looking at the notes his – the papers he’s cited of prior research, and then looking at some of the people that came afterwards who are now citing his research, and then, particular, a lot of the information that went into that Appendix A about Richard Doty and John Lear. A lot of this stuff, if I’d had a time frame, you know, if I was under a crunch to finish it by a specific time, a lot of this may have been left out. I did have, at least, the advantage of being able to just finish when it got finished, so a lot of the stuff that’s in there, now, I think, would not have been in if I’d had to rush it, but, yeah, it took a long time.


Martin: Yeah, and Richard Doty, what a character. It’s hard to understand what to believe about Richard Doty. It’s very interesting, that whole thing. Can you, basically, in a nutshell, for the person out there that is listening that’s never heard about The Bennewitz Case


Chris: Yep, let’s see. Okay, back in the – all of this takes place in the area of Albuquerque, New Mexico to, let’s say, the southern Colorado/northern New Mexico border area, particularly the western sides, and, back in the late 70s, of course, cattle mutilation phenomenon was a big thing in its own self, or mystery, if you want to call it that, and a lot of things were happening in that northwestern corner of New Mexico. Paul Bennewitz was a scientist who owned Thunder Scientific, a company in Albuquerque, and they built, I think, humidity monitoring equipment, a number of of other kinds of equipment, I believe, but – so he was somebody with a very, very good reputation in the town. Their company had contracts with any number of military agencies, and he lived at a – in a part of the town called The Four Hills, which is, actually, on the eastern edge of Albuquerque, and, practically, right on the fence line to the border of The Kirtland Air Force Base, and the larger Department Of Energy/Sandia Military Reservation area, but he got interested in, like many of us were, I think he’d been interested in the UFO phenomenon for any number of years, probably, but he had taken some interest in this whole idea of cattle mutilations, and what might be going on, at least, enough to attend one of the big Colorado Bureau Of Investigation, or whatnot, conferences that they had back in 1979, and, at one point, he met Gabe Valdez, who – everybody would recognize the name Gabe Valdez as the state trooper who, in particular, was responsible for the area that included the Jicarilla Indian Reservation, which is a large area near the town of Dulce encompassing the Archuleta Mesa area, right up there in northwestern New Mexico, but he met Gabe Valdez, and decided to, kind of, just take a ride on one of Gabe Valdez’s rounds, one night, and this was, I believe, right toward the very end of July of 1979, and, on that night ride, I mentioned some of it in the book, and described it, that he saw very unusual things going on, late that night, and, the next day, went out with a Polaroid Camera just to take a picture of the – where they’d been the night before, and it shows some of the edge of the Archuleta Mesa, and some trees, and whatnot. When he got back to Albuquerque, from my understanding, it was his wife who pointed to that Polaroid, and there was an unusual, kind of, geometrically–looking smaller object, of some sort, next to one of the pine trees in the foreground, and he thought that was very unusual, and it got him interested enough that in the next 6 months, between, I think, the next time may have been in October, and, possibly, the very end, or first part of November/December, he went up – back up there, one time, with his son, took some very unusual photographs, and described, some of it I described in the book, thing that he saw going on up there, but, on his last trip, when he returned to Albuquerque, apparently, his wife told him about some strange sounds she had heard over the house that he lived in the night before, and, of course, this is an unusual, strange subject to begin with, so who’s – who can say how your thinking goes, but, to him, at the time, he thought: well, he wondered if what he’d been paying attention to up in the area of the Archuleta Mesa might, somehow, have taken note of him, but, for one reason or another, he decided to stay up on the roof of his home, late at night, just, you know, look around. From where his house was, up on the very rooftop, you’ve got a panoramic view of the entire area 5 miles down the slope to the valley where Albuquerque is, and the airport. Straight south looks straight at The Manzano Weapons Storage Area, which, at the time, was one of the most secure areas in the country surrounded by a double or triple, I’ve heard, sometimes, electrified fence, and it was on, I don’t know if it may have been that very first night, or one of the nights subsequent to that, he noted some unusual things seemed to be near the ground, way out there, apparently, inside the fence line of The Manzano Weapons Storage Area, and they would tend to glow every few minutes, and so he sat out there with his binoculars, and whatnot, watched them, and, suddenly, fwoom! These things took off. Whoop! Shoot straight up about 400 feet. Boom! Go straight south, loop around the end of the mountain. There were, apparently, 4 of these objects that he saw, and, of course, it was a startling thing, to him, to see. Well, he saw these similar things going on over the next few nights. I don’t know if it was each consecutive night, but I know there seemed to be, at least, 3, maybe 4, instances of this, and at – finally he’s up there with a, I think it was a, Hasselblad Camera that he had used when he was up in northern New Mexico, a Hasselblad Camera with a 250 mm lens. He had some type of 8mm camera, a simple Japanese model. I don’t recall if there was a specific brand name on it, but he also had another 35mm camera mounted on a telescope, so he was loaded for bear up on the roof of his house observing these things, and, at one point, he got out there early enough to see them come in and, quickly, land. He described them as coming in, and, in less than 5 seconds, straight down, lights out, but he would watch these things, and at – he describes, in the information I have, as hand–written notes he gave on legal–sized paper outlining all the details of his observation of these objects. This is – a) his wife was out there with him, at one point when he could finally tell her to get ready, here they go, ’cause he began to – could detect the sequence before they would lift off and leave, and he got a lot of this on film, I mean, and I’ve only seen a handful of images, the ones that are in the book, that were taken off of the film in his 8mm camera. There must be some other very high resolution images that were taken through the Hasselblad, or through that telescope, that I don’t know that I’ve ever – that anybody’s ever seen, at least I’ve never seen them shown anywhere, but it was when he went and had that film, and he – processed, and he began to look at the film, and he realized that he didn’t recall ever having seen any kind of response, out there, on The Manzano Weapons Storage Area. I mean, didn’t seem that the alarms all went off, so he wondered whether The Air Force had any clue that these things were coming and going, so he calls The Air Force, and, from what I can find, it had to have been in January of 1980. If you figure how long it would take to process, maybe, given a few days or a week or two of him studying his own films, but was a note, and all of this is documented in the book, in which Ernest Edwards had told 2 gentlemen from Sandia, who had come, and, at the request of, I believe, it was Senator Pete – or Harrison Schmidt, Harrison Schmidt’s office, these gentlemen from Sandia had gone to talk to Edwards, and Edwards said: first contact with Paul Bennewitz, January of 1980. Most people have believed, to this day, that Paul got his films in the middle of the year, like June 1980, somewhere in that range, about the same time frame when a lot of this other stuff was going on when Doty’s name came into the picture and The Kirtland Documents, but, in fact, Paul got those films, and I narrowed down when I think it occurred, even if I was off by a week or two, you know it’s – I don’t think it would substantially change the situation, but Paul got those films, at least, in time for him to have contacted The Air Force in January of 1980. At that point it was always a curious thing, to me, why we have no documents attesting to any of those very first calls, or anything indicating anybody ever went and met Paul Bennewitz even though Richard Doty has stated that he went, at one point, and met Paul Bennewitz at his office. There’s no documentation indicating anything in about the first 5 months of the year. Everything seems to come out focusing right around the middle of the year, but, needless to say, Paul got these films. He was able to look at what he had and study those films clearly enough to know he had something on film. It think it’s obvious from looking at the pictures in the book, and everything seemed to grow out of that. Unfortunately, what seems to have occurred is somewhere by May, April or May, of 1980, clearly, he’d been talking to The Air Force for 4 months or so in here, at which point I am almost certain he would have told them about his prior interest in the area of Archuleta Mesa, and what he’d been doing, and that sort of thing, what led him to be on the roof to begin with, and I have a feeling that was, simply, a convenient something to distract him, to get his attention back on that area, but somewhere by around April or May, whatever Paul’s interests might have been to begin with, he was put in touch with a woman who claimed to have had some kind of abduction experience, or whatnot. Leo Sprinkle got involved, and it was under hypnosis that – where she claimed that she had seen some cow being abducted, to begin with. It sounded like it was in the area of Archuleta Mesa and Dulce, and that seemed to have ratcheted Paul’s interest back on that area, because what people – what few people seem to realize, now, is the whole scenario of underground bases in the Dulce area, the Archuleta Mesa area, all of that ties directly to Paul Bennewitz’s having met this woman who claimed that she had seen some cow being abducted, and it sounded like it was in this area, and, under hypnosis, she recounted what sounded like underground cavernous areas, and that’s where the whole seed for the idea of underground bases at Dulce

was planted, and it took Paul’s attention straight back to that area, and, obviously, less so on the area around Manzano, but it also presented a whole lot of fodder for the idea of underground bases that if anybody went and checked there would – they would find no real evidence of, and it began to make Paul look like, maybe, he wasn’t all together there on what he was doing, but we don’t know what he was being shown, and there have been some reports of helicopter flights out there. I was told of one by Ernest Edwards, himself. I’ve got it on tape that there was a helicopter flight that went up to that area right after that meeting on the base with Paul Bennewitz, and I have a suspicion, of course, that there was plenty being set up just to make Paul believe there was something going on up there, and he probably trusted. Why wouldn’t he have trusted The Air Force? You know, if you call them in good faith, and they’re supposed to be concerned, and they’re flying you up there in helicopters, and they’re telling you what they can tell you, and then Bill Moore comes in, and you don’t know that Bill Moore’s being – there’s a circle of information being fed from you to Moore to Doty to back around coming back to you to – seems to substantiate what you’re doing that I’ve, often, to this day I believe, you know, if you did know that the people around you were working together to feed you information how long – how hard would it be to make you look unstable, to make you believe things that you wouldn’t, otherwise, have swallowed? But, needless to say, my take on everything was to focus, specifically, on those original films, because, when I first talked to Paul, as you asked me, early on, a lot of what he was saying sounded bizarre. I mean, it was hard for me to comprehend how anybody could buy into this, and I began to realize that I don’t think The Air Force would, just, invite somebody to a meeting, on base, if they were talking about ideas that had no real – no evidentiary foundation, to them. Why would you call somebody down with a meeting with a Brigadier General, and the head of the weapons lab? And it made no sense, at all, so, when I finally asked Paul: well, what did – what was the first thing that you – what did you ever call The Air Force about, to begin with? And he said: oh, it was the first films that I took, and I’m like: what films were those? And that’s when it all began to come together, for me, that the only reason he ever called The Air Force was because he had these films of these vehicles coming and going from The Manzano Weapons Storage Area, and that’s, if you look at the documentation, almost all of it tends to focus on those specific films, and then try to begin to diffuse the whole situation with other things being fed to – through, was it APRO, at the time? The Wetzl Letter, a lot of other things coming into play, Bill Moore, the whole MJ–12 thing, which, now, books had been written on that, and I realize not only do people not, especially a lot of younger people, are not really familiar with The Bennewitz Case, to begin with, but, if you go look on the bookshelves, and you find books about MJ–12, and all these sites written about this, and you don’t realize that the first mention that ever was about MJ–12 was in a document which was, admittedly, disinformation that was intended to be handed to Paul Bennewitz, and it was where The Aquarius Telex and MJ–12 were first mentioned, but then, suddenly, in 3 years later, I believe in the ’83/’84 time frame, you have Bill Moore and Jaime Shandera coming out with, supposedly, finding information on the – this roll of film they were sent with all of these MJ–12 documents as though MJ–12 is taking off as a standalone issue in its own right, which –


Martin: Well, just like Dulce, and, you know, everything it – there was so many things spawned out of this whole situation.


Chris: Yeah, and, to me, that’s the point. All of this information that spawned out of that is, kind of, the divide and conquer approach. You give something for everybody. If you’re interested in conspiracy theories, well, there you go. There’s MJ–12. There’s the government. If you’re interested in aliens, well, there’s underground bases. Everybody begins to look a different way. In fact, I had to rewrite the chapters in the book that dealt with counterintelligence. When I spoke with someone who used to be counterintelligence, and I, at one point, I just happened to be sitting there over a cup of coffee, and I said: you know, I don’t understand why he calls them in January, and nothing seems to happen until whenever, 8 months later. I said: we don’t have any documentation with The Air Force. It’s like they didn’t do anything, and he looked at me and was just shaking his head, and he said: when you’re in security in places like this you have contingency plans. You don’t sit around and wait until something happens then try to decide what you’re going to do. There would have been people in place, and, of course, that, eventually, led me to find the book, which you could also buy on Amazon, written by the gentleman who used to be in AFOSI, and I used his own book to indicate how much pre–planning goes in to security situations to have something in place if something happens. My belief was when Paul called The Air Force and was put in touch with Doty, or whomever else was there, and they knew that he had seen and filmed what there – what was there, there was probably already some contingency plans on what do you do if you have a witness? How do you use them? How do you do this, that, the other? And, perhaps, they hoped Paul would just, kind of, go away. You know, he might lose interest if they – or maybe he would play ball with them, and keep quiet. I don’t know what happened that, ultimately, had came to what it did, but, to me, it’s the idea that, now, everybody thinks Paul was just somebody taking – he thought there was aliens in underground bases, and, if you look at The Kirtland Incidents, well, there’s a lot of things happening in – around the middle of the year to later. Nobody seems to have any real clue that Paul, by himself, was on the roof of his house when he got those first films, and The Air Force did not have any idea that he was there before he called them.


Martin: Now, when you say the roof of his house, I was trying to picture this, did he have, like, a deck outside of the roof of his house, or something?


Chris: The Four Hills Area is, kind of, a enclosed little, I guess I would term it the ritzy part of town, so to speak, there’s even a Four Hills Country Club in that area, but if you go to the road Wagon Train Drive, I guess, southeast there’s a white, kind of, community, and if you, actually, if you go to my website and look under the galleries I’ve got some panoramic views. There’s a map that shows the general area where all this is located, and one of the panoramic views I shot was from the white wall, but it would show you that the whole area – you turn into this area where all of these house are inside a big, like, a – one full block. The parking garages are on the outside, so there’s a black top road that goes around the outside, like a doughnut, and the driveways with – excuse me, the sidewalks within front doors are all on the inside loop, but think of this thing as one huge block of expensive homes. Kind of, the white adobe with a red brick, little abutments on it, but, apparently, his is a 2–story house with, kind of, an outside deck on the second floor, but, if you get up on the top roof, it’s flat.


Martin: Oh, I see.


Chris: That’s my understanding that if you get up on the top of this roof, which, I believe, is where he had to have been, that he has, pretty well, a 360 degree panoramic view of the entire scene from The Manzanos all the way to the west mesa on the opposite side, and it – and it’s funny, because his house, about 5 miles from the airport, looks straight down the runway as if a plane took off and didn’t quite make it it might, very well, hit right into that area, which puts him, effectively, a quarter of a mile, or so, from the northernmost part of The Manzano Weapons Storage Area, which is about a 3–mile range that goes almost due north and south, so he had, from his place on top of his roof, almost a bird’s eye straight across the plains above the fence, and everything, right to The Manzano Weapons Storage Area. There’s a picture in the book that shows that, as well, so he had a very, very good view of things coming and going from there.


Martin: Now, his second–floor laboratory that he had, he, right away, started making some type of electronic equipment that would detect any type of pulses, and things like that. He started right away in suspicion that these things were generating electromagnetic pulses, or something.


Chris: Well, that seems to be my understanding. I mean, I do want to say I’ve been to Paul’s house. I just met him briefly, but I never was, actually, up in his upstairs office or lab/study to really know what the layout of that was, but, from my understanding, and from what he described, it was after he took these films, and he began to look in – at the films, and, especially, if I’m not mistaken, he noted, at one point, that the way they seemed to take off, and move in synchrony, almost made him believe they, obviously, there must be some type of communication that – where they’re able to synchronize their movements, and, at that point, I think, because of his knowledge with the – and, of course, he had Thunder Scientific where at – ’cause his lab. He could build what he needed down there, as well, but, I think, nobody argues the idea that this guy was some kind of electronics genius. I mean, he could build what he needed to build. Greg Bishop makes some points about the equipment that Paul had in his lab, as well, but he began to think if these things were communicating, in either their modulating frequencies, or whatever the case was, that he should be able to detect some of that, and he thought: if I can build some – a piece of equipment that’s able to detect whatever unusual frequencies are going on then it might be a way for him to detect either a) the presence of these vehicles, or, at least b) something about how they’re moving, or communicating, or whatnot. He began to build equipment to try to do that, and it seems very clear, to me, that he built that equipment after he had gotten this films, and studies the films enough to, kind of, come up with an idea of how he might detect what was out there. The signals that he got on those films, and I think there’s some reference in one of the documents where Jerry Miller says that Jerry Miller, himself, says: well, it wasn’t sure whether those signals might not have – could have come from anywhere if you were just looking at the tape, so to speak, but that’s my understanding that Paul was trying to build equipment that might be able to detect whatever types of frequencies were being emitted by these vehicles when they were in the area. Whether he was, ultimately, successful with that, or not, I don’t know.


Martin: Now, he – well, you, yourself, have been into computers very early on, and I noticed that somewhere in your book, I believe it was, like, 1980, he was, supposedly, given a computer, and what kind of computer would you have back then? It wouldn’t do too much, back in 1980, and what was – I know there was rumors about that computer that it was almost like spy software, or something on it, but can you talk a little bit about that?


Chris: I can tell you what I know, but I will say, as I said to begin with, that most of my focus on Paul’s work dealt with what came about in the first year, specifically around those films. The information about the computer, the first that I really heard of that much specifics about where it came from, or how it got to Paul, was something that Greg Bishop wrote about, and it seemed that, course, understandably, Paul was pretty well off, so he, very probably, would have had the money to buy a computer of his own, although, back in the day, of course, I think there were just – you had, pretty well, TRS–80s, some of the early 8088 models, big floppy disks, that sort of thing –


Martin: Oh, yeah.


Chris: – but, other than – and I know those computers were available, so I don’t really know, specifically, what kind of computer it was, or whether he bought that computer, himself, but the impression I got, or the understanding I got from what Greg Bishop said, was that the computer, and I would presume the computer, and the software to go with it, had been given to Paul, or was delivered to Paul, by J. Allen Hynek at the request of The Air Force, but with a stipulation that Hynek not tell Paul Bennewitz where the computer came from. Now, whether it was the –


Martin: Have you heard that from anyone else? Because that seems awful bizarre.


Chris: Yes, it does, and I’m not saying that I believe it, because I dislike the idea of something being said about someone who is no longer here to find out, or argue with, or to ask about it, so, with Hynek not being around, it’s almost sounds like it’s fair game to blame anything you want on Hynek. I don’t know why it would have been necessary. It’s very possible that if Paul was into this, and that – who’s to say that Richard Doty, or anyone else might not have come to Paul, and said: we don’t know how you’re doing what you’re doing, but, tell you what, here’s a computer, and here’s some software that you might be able to use to – maybe he could write some programs of his own, for all I know, but the concern I’ve got is if you’re going to build a – if you’re going to have a computer that’s going to pick up some kind of signal, and, especially, if you’re provided a computer with software intended to help him communicate with the aliens then you have to know what kind of signal that software’s going to interpret.


Martin: Absolutely.


Chris: My friend Tommy Blan, who I’ve known for years and years, he and I got into this together, and he was there at the beginning of all of this Paul Bennewitz stuff, he is very, very good friend – was very good friends with Gabe Valdez, and is still friends with Valdez’s sons, and, apparently, Greg Valdez, one of Gabe Valdez’s sons, of course, Gabe also had a lot of stuff that Paul Bennewitz was – had – was giving to him, and showing to him, and Greg Valdez actually had a photograph that, I think, looks very similar to one of the photographs that Paul Bennewitz sent me, so I’m not the only one who has, at least, this one particular copy of this smaller object in the bluish spike, but we asked them about the computer information, and what was there, and, apparently, they had – may still have some photographs of what might have been on the screen of Paul’s little screen that showed that, but, what I get the impression of, is that the – some of the early imagery may have been very rudimentary graphics. There was some reference to a computer game from years ago called Wagon Train or Wagons West, just some little, tiny, stick figure, very blocky graphics back in the day, so that some of what was coming across that screen, at best, may have been very, very rudimentary. Who knows what it was? But Tommy Blan said that he actually saw some of the pictures that had come off, and there were some bizarre things coming across that screen, images that – and I’m not saying I believe any of it, but the talk was: was he looking at some images that may have been projections from the past? Because some of them showed dinosaur–looking, maybe reptilian–looking creatures, and, you see, to me, I think there’s every reason to believe, especially if what Greg Bishop wrote was, in fact, in any way truthful, that, somehow, The Air Force got a computer, or some software, to Paul that he was getting exactly what they were sending him that they hoped and prayed he would tell everybody about, because it would seem so bizarre, on the face of it, that it immediately begins to make you step back from anything else Paul would have talked about, so I just – I stayed away from a lot of that because I agree that, by the time, in the mid–80s, and – Paul was – some of the things he was saying were just very, very hard to comprehend, but, once again, like that appendix about the small balls of light, and the beams hitting them, that was one of the first things I’d say: well, let’s get back to the films. I want to talk about something else, and then you begin to realize, well, wait a minute. Linda Howe saw these marks. Other people documented these things, so I don’t know what was going on, but, clearly, there were some very bizarre things happening in his home.


Martin: Right, then John Lear gets into the picture, and there’s all kinds of connections between John Lear and Doty, and this is all really interesting. You first think of John Lear – the reputation he has from his father inventing The Lear Jet, and he’s such a decorated pilot, himself, and it just, kind of, takes a whole twist back and forth between Lear and – who goes to Bennewitz’s house, and this is, kind of, like, ending toward the time that you’re, actually, speaking with Bennewitz, because something that happened between him and John Lear, kind of, made everything fall apart. Can you talk a little bit about that?


Chris: Yeah, my experience with John Lear came about through my friendship with Dale Goudie, who was actually the founder of The Computer UFO Network, CUFON, back up in Seattle, which is still maintained, I think, to this day, by Jim Klotz, but, at one point, there had been a challenge by Phil Klass to come to The National Press Club, and show some of these Kirtland Documents that had already come out, by that time, because Klass was claiming it was all a hoax, baloney, whatnot, and he challenged Dale, said – Phil said he would pay for The Press Club, and Dale would go there and present them, and, so, Dale contacted me, and – ’cause he new I was working on some of this, and said he’s thinking up the challenge, and it turned out that there was going to be a MUFON conference at that, basically, the same time in the Washington, D. C. area, and, so he arranged with Phil to just have this – have a little press conference at The National Press Club, I think it was, like, on that Friday, if I recall the exact time frame, but, anyway, right about that, so we’d get the same flights in and out of Washington, and catch – kill 2 birds with 1 stone, and, just before all of this came about, Dale contacted me and said that he had been contacted by John Lear, and, of course, all of us were like: wow, John Lear. Lear Jets, and, so you did get – you’d get some mileage out of that name, that’s for sure, but – and, apparently, John Lear had wanted to meet with Dale in Washington when we were there. Fine. I mean, it wasn’t my call on any of it, but, so we all end up in Washington, and there’s John Lear, a very amiable guy. I mean, I will say, to this day, he is a very, very likable person, and, outside of any of this, probably – and an interesting guy with a lot of tales to tell, but he shows up in Washington. We all met. We were all friendly. Dale was there. I was there. Tommy Blan was there, and everything seemed very innocent, at that point, as we were preparing for The Press Club meeting, and, sitting in the room, if memory serves me, there were some mentions made by John, who we thought knew nothing, we thought he was just – somehow he got interested in this, and was all gung–ho now, and had met Dale, and he had the wherewithal and the means to fly to Washington, and whatnot, so that was fine. It was an open conference, but John began to mention some things about intelligence connections, or something, some people he knew, some places, like, in Turkey that might know something, and I remember Tom and I – we looked at each other and, kind of, raised eyebrows, like, boy, this guy sounds like he talking – he’s not just a clueless newbie, so to speak, that he – but, all right. No problem, so we went to The Press Club, and it was kind of interesting. One of the points that I recall that I thought was strange was Tom and Dale and I, we’re all – we’re up the front, behind the desk, and John’s sitting in the front row. The press room was a room about, I’m guessing, maybe 20, 30 feet wide, you know, they have a number of these things, and, maybe, 35 feet deep, 30 feet deep with a bunch of chairs in it. Some of the news cameras would set up along the periphery. John sat in the very front row, and, just as it was about to start, I mean, seconds from everything starting up, John got up and moved and sat at the very back row. I remembered, to this day, thinking: well, that was bizarre. That was strange. I don’t know – I mean, the cameras weren’t going to be focused on him, anyway, but, needless to say, he moved back, so The Press Club went off. It was fine. After that we were sitting in, I think we were sitting in the lobby, someplace, having a drink at the hotel, I believe, and I remember John sitting there, and, at one point, he said: you know, if he was going to ask – he said: if I was going to make someone a spokesman for this I’d pick Chris, and I thought: well, that’s complimentary. That was fine. I’m not sure why that mattered, but he had this look on his face. At the time I thought: that’s strange. When it all began to come about was when Bill Moore was giving a – I think he had a little question and answer session, and a lot of us was – I mean, it was crowded. Of course, Bill Moore was in his heyday, and John was sitting right next to – well, on my left, and we’re sitting here in these chairs, and Bill Moore is up behind the podium giving his talk, and, rather, answering questions, and, for some reason, suddenly, John stood up, and said something to the effect: well, I know something about MJ–12. I know some people who know about MJ–12, and, I mean, all cameras and faces were on John from that moment forward, and Tom and I are sitting there with this feeling of: holy cow! We had no clue that he was going to do this. We had no clue that he was even had any knowledge of any of this stuff. As far as we knew he’d, pretty much, just some guy who was – had a name and got interested in UFOs, and he was there just tagging along, but, all of a sudden, he stood up, and that was where John was born, as far as I’m concerned, in UFOlogy, but it – but, I have to be honest with you, I felt seriously blindsided. Not that it had any real effect on me, it’s just that I felt like: holy cow! I didn’t see this coming, at all, but, needless to say, after that, you know, it’s a fair – free country, right? So John took off, and, of course, all of the attention was on him, and being John Lear. He got a lot of notoriety for that, and – but we remained friends for a while, after that. I mean, there was not, necessarily, a reason to not to, and he was a very likable guy. He came to Dallas, at one point, and was giving a talk at one of the radio stations, and I picked him up, and, of course, I have to be honest with you, to be sitting on the other side of the glass, hear him say he thinks there’s 80 species, I think that’s the correct number he said, about 80 species of aliens visiting this planet, and I’m cringing. I’m thinking – trying to duck down as low as I can. You know, that John’s presentation, as far as I was concerned, had to do with a lot of this kind of, just, way out there kind of information. I don’t know anything, really, much. I wasn’t involved with John at all back at the time that – although I’m hearing about it now that back when Robert Lazar was first coming into the picture John, apparently, was one of the first people that was – got involved with Lazar about white – that, but John went on, and made this huge play almost saying just about anything under the sun. He was one of the first real big proponents of things going on at Area 51, and he played up a lot of the whole idea of the underground bases with – I describe much of this in the book, and just in the section trying to, kind of, clear the air on what I know of, but the point at which I had to just break off with even hanging with John, or, so to speak, communicating with him, was one time when I was in John’s house in Vegas, and there was a comet. We were talking about something – this guy’s got an amazing house. I mean, had a, if I recall, a horse barn. Had it’s own tennis court. I mean, we’re talking more than I’ll ever have, but a beautiful place. Beautiful room. You can actually find pictures online that show his study, which is, practically, as big as the average person’s living room by 1 and a half times. Pictures on the wall, the whole nine yards, and he had discussed some of how he had flown for Air America back in the day. There was the big wall picture that had, I think, the whole Laos/Cambodia/Vietnam map, places he had been, but then he mentions the time that – who’s the guy that wrote Pale Rider? Anyway, had been talking about his time in The Navy, and had been all over, some of the things that he was talking about, and he mentioned having seen this bizarre document called The Krill Memo. K–R–I–L–L, you can find it online, and, apparently, the term that was given was O–H Krill, which John says stood for: Original Hostage Krill, and, apparently, was some kind of a memo anonymously – not signed by anybody that seemed to attest to one of the aliens, or some alien that had been captured and was kept captive for a while. Well, the guy William Cooper, I think that’s his name, William Cooper, who wrote Pale Rider, was big name, at the time, was in there talking about having been in The Navy, at the time, and made comment to the – it was a television interview, I think, that he was at John’s house, presumably, giving, and made a comment to the interviewer that he had seen the OH–Krill Memo back when he was in The Navy, and I may be paraphrasing this from my memory, but I’m going to stand on this as being very accurate as far as the way things went. Well he says to the interviewer that he saw this OH–Krill Memo, and John says – then they took a break, and, during the break, John brought the – went over to Cooper, and says: why are you telling him that you saw this memo, and Cooper says: well, I did, and John says: you can’t have because, then he names this other gentleman, because he and I made it up, and, of course, I’m standing in John’s house while he’s telling me how this went down –


Martin: And he’s admitting this right to you.


Chris: Oh yeah, and he says: Cooper says: well, I don’t know why you’re saying that, but I did see it, you know, something to save face, apparently, and I’m standing there, and, of course, my jaw’s starting to drop, and I’m like – I told John. I said: John, why are telling me this? So you’re telling me that you – I’m trying to recall the name of the gentleman that he – nay, I think I’ve got it written down, or someplace, but, apparently, he says: well, this other person had wanted to “break into the UFO field,” and, so they created this document. Now, John has stated, and I believe him, may have been on the Above Top Secret site, he’s written some posts where he addresses this that I’ve made this – I’ve said this before that when I told John I said: John, how am I supposed to be friends with you, on this? How can I even associate with you when I’m trying so hard to have this taken seriously? And here you’re telling – I don’t even know why you’re telling me this, but here you are telling me that you’ve fabricated this memo, which is just more garbage out here. It’s already full – enough garbage as it is, then here you are saying this. How can I associate with you, knowing this? And that was end of it. When I left that was, you know, that was all. Now, I’m not saying I don’t like John. I’m just saying now, especially, when I look back, and especially the type of thing that I finally began to – and I suspect, now, what I wrote in the appendix about what I see as a very questionable Doty and Lear I wonder about John’s role in all of this, whether – I just don’t know. John, at some point, can answer. He can address that, himself, but the whole idea was for John to have told me he and this gentleman fabricated this, in some way, I guess it was going to be a calling card for this person to break into the UFO lecture circuit, or something. I just – it was just unfathomable, to me.


Martin: Right.


Chris: Anyway, but the point was, then, after that, of course, John had gone – has gone on, ever since, and made a big name for himself as somebody who knows things about UFOlogy and Area 51, and still – I guess he’s still preaching the same story.


Martin: Now, he actually went to Bennewitz’s house, and stayed, possibly, a couple of days, and this is, like, toward the end of your communication, and we’re – we need to wrap this up, fairly quickly, but one of the things that happens is after John Lear leaves there you have a conversation. He’s – he seems very angry about the whole situation. I don’t know if he blames you, or not, changes his number. You’re never able to get in touch with him, and, was it 2003? I believe it is. He passes away, and it’s, kind of, a mystery, but the question on his death, or nobody seems to really know, that you’ve spoken with, how he actually died, but the question I wonder: is anyone trying to reach his wife, or perhaps, widow, or other family members, his son, to see if there’s still this information, his films, and things like that, available?


Chris: Not to my knowledge, other than the only – last people that I have known of, of course, I think, Greg Bishop may have tried to have some communication with him, at the time, although I, kind of, agree with Greg Bishop from the point of view that they do have the right to be left alone, and I don’t know what they’re – the family side of this whole thing was, and how they feel about it, at the time, so I am extremely reticent to intrude, although I did call Paul’s son while I was working on this book hoping that I might clarify just some points of it. He was very polite, and even, actually, early on, before Paul passed away, I had called his son, and just wanted to check on Paul, and see if he was there, and ’cause, at the time, it was just staggering, to me, that Paul hadn’t called me right away. Oh, and just to clarify, it was John Lear who had been to see Paul, and after Lear left I talked to Paul on the phone within a day or two, and Paul was livid about something to do with Lear, and it was subsequent to that, within another day or two after that, that Linda Howe called me, and asked if I had spoken with Paul, and I said: yeah, a couple of days ago, and she said: well, his phone number’s been disconnected or changed to an unlisted number. I was never able to – I never was in touch with Paul, again, although I was – I would have bet money he would have called me, or write me within a few days. Give me the new number, but I never heard from him, again, so I don’t know what happened, there, but I did try to contact him. I wrote several letters, after that. I have no way of knowing whether they ever got to him. I did call his son, one time. It was very polite, and, basically, just said all he could recommend was to keep trying, to go his father, directly, and if – it was his father’s choice whether he answered, or not, and then, I think, after a while I was writing on the book, after his father passed away, I did call Thunder Scientific, and spoke, briefly, with his son, again, but he, basically, just said, you know, they’re just not interested in going on with it, and, finally, the last thing I did, just on a lark, was just, after I began to enhance the images, and I began to realize that there is serious data in these images. I mean, you can actually get past all of this glow, and see things down in there, and realizing how substantial they would be, not to mention the other images, the Hasselblad with the 250mm lens, and where is that? And I did write to his wife, and, basically, just said I’m just asking her that – telling her that my feeling is that those original films from his rooftop were the films that are at the core of everything, that if she’s got them, or if she knows where they are to, if nothing else, please save them. Put them in a safe. Lock them away. Whatever, because, maybe, at some point down the road, somebody will have a chance to actually get their hands on the actual films, ’cause even Paul had told me, when I was looking at the pictures that he sent, to me, that he said: the originals are far more clear, and I imagine they have to be. What I got is pictures he snapped off of a film editor screen, so if it was possible to get the original film, and scan that in I can only imagine what might be in there in those original films, but I don’t know of anybody that’s ever got their hands on the original films, out there. I guess I almost wish somebody would, if nothing else, so that they’re out there where people can study them, but, once again, it’s 30 years ago, and it’s tough to know. I just – I would like to see some justice done for Paul, at least, for the fact that he did have something, and what happened to him, I don’t think, is anything anybody in this country would have expected, or even imagined that some people in counterintelligence, or otherwise, might make an effort out to diffuse a – somebody who is simply trying to do the right thing.


Martin: Yeah, it’s so twisted and unbelievable. It’s a great book. It’s a great read. It’s called X Descending. Can find it on his website, and, Chris, it’s been absolutely wonderful. Thank you for these 2 sessions. I really appreciate all the hard work that you’ve done on this.


Chris: Thank you, Martin, and I hope to talk to you again, soon.


Martin: So, this is Martin Willis with Chris Lambright, and that’s it, for today.


The End

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