Show Notes, Chris Lambright I, 25.

Listen to the podcast here.

Martin Willis: All right, I’m on Skype with Chris Lambright for Part 1 of 2. How you doing, Chris?


Chris Lambright: Doing fine, thanks.


Martin: And where am I Skyping you at?


Chris: I’m in central Texas, actually, not too far from Waco. I’d gone to Baylor, and had some family, down here, so, but, yeah, it’s halfway between Dallas and Austin.


Martin: All right. Well, I got done reading your book, and one of the most enjoyable book I’ve read on the subject, absolutely, called X Descending. The book is formatted in a way – you’re, basically, telling your story, but with a lot of really good facts, so can you, just, talk a little bit about your book and what it took to put it together?


Chris: Sure. Originally, the – my original idea for the title, actually, came from a screenplay that I had wanted to write, but, at some point, having met Ray and realizing, eventually, that so little of what I knew about the Paul Bennewitz’s experiences was actually out there, and virtually nothing of the  pictures that he – the – from the films that he originally got was out there, and, after 20 years, you see all sorts of nonsense that’s been, just, rehashed by people quoting someone else, and although I never intended to write a book on the UFO phenomenon I finally decided, you know, I do know a good bit about these 2 particular films, and it was when I saw that both films, in fact, or both cases, The Paul Bennewitz’s Case and the film that Ray Stanford took, I began to find connections that converged to The Air Force, and, specifically, The Air Force Research Lab, and what I knew of the involvement, there, I realized I didn’t want to say nothing. I mean, it – I would have preferred that the information be out there, so I decided to put it into a book, and the second part focused on my own personal involvement and experiences in The Paul Bennewitz Case, but the goal of the book was to focus on these 2 films, what those films show. Nowhere in the book do I make the case this is aliens, although, as I said, I don’t think Occam’s Razor is going to cut too easily, in particular, when it comes to Ray’s film, but, the point is, this is a technology, and it’s clearly visible on the film, and the evidence that’s out there shows that if not – if more than just people in The Air Force Research Labs, somewhere, but people that are out there, especially Leik Myrabo, and some of the others, they’re fully aware that these are films of vehicles demonstrating some kind of advanced technology that, certainly, isn’t on any – at any airport I’ve seen, or at any place, and what went in with Paul Bennewitz clearly indicates a big effort to keep it quiet, so, anyway, I thought it was just time to lay it all out in the book, and it took a lot of time, and a lot of things came out while I was writing that I had took the time to include, as well, but, anyway, that’s the point as it’s my experiences. It’s not just a generic book on the UFO phenomenon. It is my experiences, specifically, what I know and learned from these two cases, or these two films.

Martin: This is the first book I read in a pdf format, and the book is only available, at this time, online, I wanted to say that, in Kindle, and what other formats is it in?


Chris: Kindle and the epub format, which is, primarily, the one that Apple’s tablets went with, but most other non–Kindle tablets, that are out there, and you can even get readers for any of these formats on a computer, but the Kindle format, which is specifically Amazon’s Kindle’s format. The epub format, which is readable on just about any smartphone, any other kinds of tablet, out there, your computer, whatnot, and pdf file, which is, also, generally, accessible on these tablets, as well as smartphones and computers, as well. There’s slight differences between them, although I don’t think it causes any issue, simply that there were some limitations on the size that illustrations are accepted on the Kindle format, so those illustrations are a little bit smaller, a little – slightly smaller resolution, for example. The pdf and the epub formats give you a little bit more room, maybe a little bit sharper images as far as zooming in on them, but that was one of my goals, and I still intend to have this thing published, one way or the other, in hardback format if some agent or some publisher wants to talk to me I’m glad to talk to them, but I – looking into some printing, not doing it myself. Just the economics of the publishing industry, right now, make color pictures somewhat costly, and, unless you’re writing a super bestseller, it’s hard to get somebody to, kind of, want to make the investment, but color – the color was the big thing, to me. It had – you have to see it in color, and I was lucky that, right at that time, the tablets all came out, and now you can see color images on tablets, and pinch zoom to zoom in on the details, and whatnot, so it did work out well enough, but you’re correct that, right now, it’s only available in the 3 formats: the Kindle format, the epub format, and the pdf format. You can purchase any of the formats off of my own website,, but you can also get the epub format from Apple’s iBookstore, download to your iPad, or, of course, the Kindle format directly from Amazon.


Martin: Getting into the book, itself, the story of, actually, both of these gentleman. First of all, Ray Stanford’s film actually might uncover some type of advanced technology that Myrabo, later, is starting to exploit, and Bennewitz’s cover–up. I would say it’s a cover–up, and he is someone you end up feeling bad for, because of how much all this delusional information pushed into him, and just little tidbits of things that almost sounded real enough, and, but it was all what they call disinformation to, actually, muddy the waters of anyone actually believing him, and thinking he was basically insane. In fact, it seems like he was heading in that direction, and, so, I don’t know which one you want to talk about first, either Ray Stanford’s film or Paul Bennewitz, but the call is yours, either one.


Chris: Not as much, I think, has been talked about Ray Stanford’s film simply because that’s the less well–known one. The Bennewitz Case, kind of, became the fountainhead of so much that’s become mainstay in UFOlogy, lately, that it – but it, once again, it seems to me the important factor is to establish that both of these films show, definitely, vehicles. These are not orbs, little out–of–focus lights in the distance, that sort of thing. These are films that definitely show something that – that was – that’s definitely technological, and in the case of both films, if you trace back – of course, Bennewitz, after his meeting down at Kirtland, was, according to the documentation, it was suggested that he apply for an Air Force grant, and, I believe, it was the head, I think it was Ed Breen was his name, the head of The Air Force Weapons Lab, offered to help him fill out the grant. Now, that’s, kind of, and unusual thing to suggest to someone if you think he’s crazy, and if you think he’s presenting things that are just not – now, for some reason, after that, though, they decided not to go forward with it. Now, we could come up with all sorts of reasons why they might decide not to go forward with it, but, clearly, the head Marine must have thought there was something interesting enough. I keep – I’m reminded of Lyndon Johnson’s famous quote, if you excuse the wording, here, which is: “Better to have your enemies on the inside pissing out than the outside pissing in,” so it may be that, at some point, they thought: well, if we can get this guy to play ball at least there’s a better chance to, kind of, manage the situation. For some reason that didn’t happen. In other words, it – I don’t know whether he just began to, as I call it, go off the reservation, a little bit, he was calling everybody, spreading the word around, or somebody came in and said: we are not going to give anymore acknowledgement to what he’s got by giving him a grant, but it didn’t happen with Paul Bennewitz. It seemed to me that the opposite, or the fix was already in starting in the middle of 1980 with The Wetzl Letter, but in the case of Ray’s picture it’s, kind of, a story, as I described in the book, of how Leik Myrabo happened to find out about Ray and go to visit him, but Myrabo is someone who, in his own career, had already had connections, or contacts, with, I believe, at one – of course, he had worked for BDM Corporation, I think, at one point. He had some connections in The Air Force through the breakthrough propulsion physics program, I think, at the time, so he already, I think, had some good – and he was a player, so to speak, with The Air Force, as well, and, when he happened to see what Ray had on film, he already had his idea for his light craft, which was a, kind of, a beamed energy propulsion small disc model they’d worked with, but if, as I point out in the book, if you notice the way the whole image of this thing changed after he had seen what Ray had on film, and he went back and, apparently, was able to substantiate that some of the concepts that you could glean, that anybody, you, would be able to glean it. It was one of the first things I noticed when I saw, on a slide screen, the pictures in Ray’s film that the way this object was flying, if you want to word it that way, which is, basically, if you take a not flat, like a Frisbee, but flip it up so the – I think in the film it’s actually the underside, but, basically, one full face of this object is flying straight into the wind, as I call it, pancaked right into the wind with a beam firing out of the center as, like, one candle stick sticking out of the middle of a cake, the beam’s firing forward as this thing moves along, and it’s clear to – it was clear, to me, it would be clear to anyone that that does not seem to be a very aerodynamic way to fly, and I remember talking to Ray about it. I said: this beam must be doing something that it’s firing out in that direction ahead of this vehicle as it’s moving along, and, subsequently, as Ray enhanced the images you can begin to see things happening around this beam. Things are going on, as I described in the book, but it was one of those things that anybody with any rudimentary understanding of aerodynamics would look at and know something’s going on, and that seems to be what Myrabo – of course, he’s fully qualified – an expert in that kind of an area. He was able to glean that something going on, and go back and actually test it in the lab, and that’s, kind of, where I got into this whole thing, because I had knew nothing about Myrabo, at the time, but when I read about an experiment that had been conducted, and this was back in 1993, when there was a – the Skunkworks Digest was a fairly well known online kind of a discussion, like Google Groups, today, but I read a mention of this, and went and looked at the picture that was taken in a hypershock tunnel, like a wind tunnel, and I saw that and I thought: woah! This looks a lot like what Ray filmed, and I contacted Ray, called him, immediately, on the phone, and that’s when he bloated out: oh, that must be like Myrabo, who was here visiting a few years ago looking at these pictures from the film, and I knew, right then, Myrabo had taken this concept and tested it and realized that yes, you can, in fact, affect – you can mitigate the shock wave, and a lot of other potential benefits by projecting energy out in front of a vehicle as it’s moving through an atmosphere, and, over the next few years, as I began to follow Myrabo’s work, and realizing almost very quickly, that he got a grant from The Air Force Research Lab to do experiments with his light craft, so he spent some time down at White Sands, and whatnot, and a lot of this is described in the book. That’s the whole point is to outline what I found out, and where and who was involved, and what the connections were, but I just recall thinking that boy was an interesting coincidence, if nothing else, that Bennewitz gets offered a grant by one of the top men at The Air Force Weapons Lab, and The Air Force Weapons Lab is the precursor to The Air Force Research Lab, even though at Kirtland, I believe, now it’s called their Space Vehicles Directorate, and it’s part of the overall Air Force Research Lab, and the Propulsion Directorate, I believe, is where Myrabo got his grant to work with the – with his light craft, but the point was here are 2 films, totally separated, that both seem to tie right back into The Air Force and Air Force research, Air Force Research Lab, specifically, and maybe coincidentally, or not, one of the locations that Myrabo, at one point, had worked for, BDM Corporation, is a big – has one of its main operating locations was right there in Albuquerque, which is, of course, where Bennewitz took his film. There were a lot of really interesting coincidences that seemed to dovetail when it came down to, actually, who’s, maybe, interested in this type of propulsion, or this type of technology, but that’s the – that was where my whole reason for taking these 2 films, and using them as far as the material in the book is because they both dovetail into, ultimately, work that I could point straight to The Air Force Research Lab, The Air Force, in general, but The Air Force Research Lab, that kind of a – those people, in particular, and there are a lot of connections, in there, but Myrabo’s work, ultimately, I think, shows that he knows we did not have the technology to do what Ray filmed back in 1985, and even after that, for years and years to come, we still have that – don’t have that technology, and some of the reports that I was able to find by even some gentlemen at NASA on these new, futuristic concepts that people were working with, at the time, showed that even just to do what Myrabo conceived of we don’t have the infrastructure to even accomplish something like that, and, one of the points that I think should be noted, though, is Myrabo’s concept, typically, only works with hypersonic velocities. What Ray filmed was not going hypersonic by any stretch of the imagination, at all, meaning that’s not just what’s keeping it up. You may be able to mitigate shockwaves using energy beam propelling or projecting energy out in front to, basically, expand the atmosphere away from your vehicle, so you’re, basically, flying through a bubble, if you want to call it that, a low–density corridor, but that’s not what, apparently, is keeping the object from falling out of the sky.


Martin: Now, this would be, a lot of times, what you hear when these things take off at supersonic speed, and it – and there’s no shockwave, or anything like that. This would eradicate that, basically, but it wouldn’t have anything to do with any type of propulsion out of atmosphere, in any type of way, would it?


Chris: Well, it may be, and that’s the point. The point is if you’re traveling in an atmosphere this directed energy, so to speak, the beam, what they call, the directed energy air spike is what Myrabo’s concept was called, which is, simply, a way to, basically, move the atmosphere from around you way – long before you get there, and close it in behind you, so you’re, basically, riding inside this low–density corridor that, yes, if you’re not bursting through the atmosphere at those speeds then, sure, you have no shockwave, but, as I said, but once you’re in an – in – out of the atmosphere, sure, it may not be something that’s required, but it is a good point that you make, because it’s clearly something that’s useful for inside the atmosphere. I don’t know that that means these objects would, necessarily, be flying out of the atmosphere, but when Ray described having seen them they came in, kind of, from over land, if you want to call it that, to where he was on the coastline, and, just about when they were overhead, turned at a very steep angle, and, pretty much, looked like they’re leaving the atmosphere, if you want to put it that way, but the point was they definitely took off and turned directions very quickly, and headed almost straight up, so there’s a lot more going on in the technology of what these vehicles were doing than just the idea that you or I or anybody might be able to deduce from looking at the – from trying to imagine what this beam might be doing, but if that’s what it’s doing, and I think Myrabo’s right on the money, that the beam clearly is having an effect on an – in the atmosphere, which means these vehicles clearly were intended, at some point, to have to deal with atmospheres, or maneuver the atmosphere out of the way, that sort of thing, but to have 7 of these things flying along in procession back in 1985 I don’t – I think it’s – it’d be a hard case to come up with who built those things back when Ray filmed them, or, at least, who – it wasn’t just a production model, at that point. I mean, it wasn’t just a one test vehicle. Somebody had already built 7 of these things. Where they came from, who knows?


Martin: Now, Myrabo would never really come out and admit that he was influenced by those films that he actually saw at Ray’s house for his work, in the future. Is that right?


Chris: Well, I – not yet. I do want to qualify this and say Myrabo wasn’t the only one there with Ray when this went on. There was someone else there, so there is a second person who can verify, plus Ray’s got material that he was sent by Myrabo that can substantiate this, as well. I don’t fault Myrabo for being cautious, at all, although I know that I know he knows, and I’ve spoken with him, myself, and, once again, I’m not making any other claims. I am absolutely happy that he was able to go out and demonstrate that what was being demonstrated by these vehicles Ray filmed, in fact, has practical uses, but, perhaps, in his career, his position, I don’t know if there are other requirements, he seems to really want to lay low, been very, very cautious, and he told me, one time, that if he’s in an interview and anybody brings up the subject of UFOs he’s out of there, so why that would be I would hope that some point he would come out, and I wish, at some point, he would just come out and say: okay, this is the way it is, but, needless to say, my aim is not to focus, specifically, on Myrabo any more than any other scientists who have seen what Ray has on film, and know, good and well, that this is clearly evidence of some technology that we don’t have, at least not us, here, now, in the last 50 years, but, yeah, but the proof is out there. I just don’t understand why the UFO community, if you want to word it that way, has not picked up on this and run with it. We have so much discussion – The Disclosure Project sending petitions to The White House. We’ve got all of these other things that have been going on, and nobody’s seemed to want to pick one particular, or to grab hold of this information that’s definitely there, and use that to get some kind of a beachhead on this whole thing, so I don’t know. I’m dismayed, sometimes, with UFOlogy, as a whole, but I don’t, necessarily, blame it on the people, themselves, ’cause I think, to a great extent, if you – in the long run we’re going to find out that a lot of what’s – the heads of, maybe, the leadership, and some of the these – the primary groups that we have, now, MUFON, whoever else may, very well, be part of the way that the thing is being controlled. I mean, I’d – I’ve started to write a paper called – well, I started it a while back, and I keep putting it off – called: “Why UFOlogy Will Fail,” and, I think, one of the thoughts that, kind of, got me thinking this way was from 1947, I think, to 1969 The Air Force had projects ongoing. It had Sign, Grudge. Project Blue Book ran until 1969, and we know there were any number of profound cases, Socorro, any number that occurred in that time frame. If it was worth, to them, to pay that money to have these programs ongoing for more than 20 years why, in 1969, did they, suddenly, just stop? I mean, as a –


Martin: Yeah, to me, I’ve always thought that was, just, okay, it’s too public. Let’s tuck it under somewhere hidden away from the public.


Chris: And it’s very possible that they had found out enough to know that there’s something going on. They had enough information to work with, now, that they didn’t need to keep having, like you were saying, a public face on it, but  look at what’s happening, now. The technologies that are available with just a simple cell phone, digital cameras, people having the ability to communicate, instantly, it seems to me there are going to be things that will be happening, out here, that they would want to keep, you know, to be aware of, if nothing else, some way to manage the situation. How do you keep it? Look what happened to Paul Bennewitz. How do you make sure people don’t pay too much of attention? It would seem, to me, that the logical place to do that from would be to have public groups, but able, in some way, to manage the information that comes through. There’s information that, I mean, I don’t know if you’ve ever had experience with this, but I’ve talked to other people about it that there are cases that are reported, for example, to MUFON, and my term is they’re black–holed. They go. You won’t ever find out any more about it, because I’ve contacted the – one individual at MUFON, one time, just because there was a picture that I thought might, very well, tie into something in my book, and I asked: would you be willing to just send my email address to this witness? Because MUFON will not divulge any information on the witness, or the – and, no, they wouldn’t even do that. Now, I think the witness probably thought they were doing the right thing by reporting it. That’s why I would – my recommendation to the – anybody who sees something is tell everybody. Don’t just –


Martin: All the sites. There’s plenty of sites you can report to.


Chris: Yes. Get it out there, somehow, because, unfortunately, there are cases that I’ve – there are ways to find some information on this that you won’t find in the MUFON database, now. They’re not there. Other reports that come through that, once again, something comes through, and, either, that gets written off as a simple contrail – I have a case – I have it sitting – a disc sitting right by me, here, of something that, by all accounts, would be a mothership taken by a woman up in Connecticut, and it’s – I have no explanation for what this is. Far more clear than that Salida, Colorado video that’s – you can find on Youtube, and MUFON said: it’s a contrail, and if you look at this thing, no. It is, by no means, a contrail, but, once again, if I hadn’t been able to track her through some other ways – you’re not going to get – and I wish MUFON would change that. That’s one of the points I keep trying to make. I wish they would change that, but, at the same time, if the information’s reported, and the witness thinks they’ve done their job, and they think somebody’s looking into it, but the case is never going to get out there, and especially if it’s not in that database it’s effectively black-holed, and I just – and I don’t know what’s there that you and I might love to know about, but we’ll never see it, so I don’t – just hard to know how to deal with that.


Martin: Right, I get a lot of emails from this podcast, and I received an email, the other day, of someone that just had a sighting, in Texas, actually, and I, basically, told him – I gave him several links, and I said: report it to them all. I just wanted to make sure that he reported it to one, or, at least, one or more.


Chris: No, you’re absolutely right. I mean, even on my own website, which – X Desk Publishing – I have – there’s a link in the top, you’ll see, to the X Desk, and under there I put a place – I’m more interested, if possible, in photographic cases, or cases where there’s some film or some imaging, 2 of them, but I even have a link, there, although I’ve not really made an effort to publicize it, that if somebody wants to report something I’m more than happy to hear it. At least I’ll have a database of it, there, that’s somewhere else, but you’re right. We have MUFON, and we’ve got The National UFO Reporting Center. Those are the primary 2 that people will get to if they’re referred to there by whoever, and, if it’s not made public, by MUFON, and, I think, you’ll notice I wrote, in the book, about the instance of the Dallas MUFON Chapter that were very dismayed when they heard, even back in the day, that Walter Andrus told them the best cases never make it into The MUFON Journal, and they were staggered. Why? And, so this is way back then, so, to this day, it all appears in the database, and how hard is it to just make sure? A little check on a box, someplace, and that case doesn’t show up in the database, but it bothers me because people don’t realize that that’s happening, that there’s only 2 places, and it, between you and me, if I was somebody in the intelligence community, I mean, just need the secretary to be answering the phone, and refer to know what’s coming in, and who’s to say that, maybe, that’s one of the ways things like this are maintained is that the person who’s – the person who has control over that database can make sure nobody sees certain things, and it all depends upon – ’cause that goes in, and it’s automatically put into the database, images, and the whole nine yards, so it’s – it would be very easy, at that point. I wouldn’t need Project Blue Book anymore. It’s like somebody says: what does The CIA or The NSA need to worry about about eavesdropping on everybody? We put everything on Facebook. They go to Facebook, trace all your friends, trace who’s connected to whom, whatever, so these days we’re doing their job for them, but –


Martin: That’s right. Now, getting back to Ray’s film, the position of the craft, and the energy projection out in front, the spike, has anyone else reported any other visual like that?


Chris: The overall shape of the craft has been reported a number of places. The 2 that come to mind, especially the beam being projected out front – there was gentleman who worked for NASA, I just cannot recall his name right off the top of my head, but the report’s – you can find it online. He had – he made a – he put a report, one time, about having been somewhere in South America, I think it was, and he and some people were in a boat rowing along a river, and saw 2 objects coming in low, and he – the image that he drew of them sounds very much like what Ray described, that there was a beam projecting forward from these 2 objects as they came in, and it – if I recall, the drawing of them was very, very similar, as well, so the idea of a beam being projected in front of moving craft, like this, I don’t know of any that have had 8 of them in procession as clear as Ray had. The one that I told you that I saw on the MUFON site, or that I – I take it back. I don’t think I even came across it on MUFON. I think it was an article, had a photograph. A gentleman had parked his car, one night, and saw this something coming across a field. It was, obviously, it looked like it was on fire, so to speak, that kind of a coloration, but he ran down it with his cell phone of his camera phone, and took a picture of this thing as it’s going across the field. What I noted was unusual about it was that it had that kind of aspect to it. It was – it looked – the main part or part of it seemed to be perpendicular, or, rather, vertical, and some kind of a projection, almost like a – the letter T – some kind of a projection sticking out the left side. Now, my question – all I wanted to know, initially, was: what direction was this thing traveling? If it was going towards the prong that’s sticking out the front, or was it going the other way? It would have made a lot of difference, to me, to just know, because it wasn’t clear from that small picture whether it was moving to the left, or moving to the right, so I tracked down the – whoever had originally hosted the page where the picture was, and contacted him and said: you know, I’m very curious if there’s more information on this report. I mean, it tells us what day it was taken, gives his description, but nothing says the object was going to the left, or moving what direction, and he didn’t even really know, and, so, I said: well, is there a chance to contact the witness? Well, no. I can’t give you that information. Well, can you give him my email address? All I – just – at this stage just want to have an idea. Does he have a better – a higher resolution picture, a copy of that image? Because I thought it was clear enough there might be something you could determine about it, and was it going to the left or the right? So I could know was this projection – was this beam sticking forward, so to speak? And he said: no. We can’t even get you to – MUFON doesn’t let me do that. I think that was the wording of it, and there – that was a perfect – oh, that was the most frustrating thing. All I wanted to know was: what direction was it going? They hadn’t even gotten that much information on the sighting, but it was a pretty, pretty nice, clear, on a dark, kind of, background image. Oddly enough, one of the other places that I recall having seen a drawing of a quintessential disc–shaped looking object, which, to mention in Ray’s film, it’s not real clear, in the pictures that I have, but Ray has shown these pictures to others. There are a number of frames in this film. This object is project, in Ray’s film, was projecting this beam from, as I mentioned earlier, what I think you might call the underside, let’s say: the bottom of it. If you took the quintessential disc–shaped craft, with a dome on the top, turned it up, so that the dome is to the back side, the direction of travel, and the bottom it’s flying with a – that other face forward, the beam is coming out of that – what do you say? The center of the bottom, and I don’t mean to misrepresent that, but the idea is it’s flying in that – ’cause the other side you can clearly see an indication of some kind of a dome structure, or something on the other side, but, if you recall the case from 1959, I believe it is, The Father Gill Case from Papua, New Guinea, I have a whole set, pdf file set, of the pages of, I think it was, there – what was his name? Crutwell. Whoever the other priest was who, kind of, gathered together all the reports that were reported by the individuals around that time, in Boianai, and wherever it was in – near Papua, New Guinea, and, in one of the drawings, here’s an object. Looks like the disc shape with a dome on it. Lot of them are showing it, kind of, horizontally, but, in one of these drawings, here’s this thing turned straight up, on edge, so, clearly, whoever saw that and drew it, for him, seemed to be indicating that at – one of the vehicles that they were watching, or objects they saw seemed to be standing on that – turned vertically as a rose – as opposed to horizontally, so I’ve seen that aspect in other illustrations and other cases, and I think Ray’s got plenty of others, but, as I said, that may just be the way they’re – these were traveling, at that time. There’s no way to know that any of those objects that you might see might very easily be able to flip over, travel in one direction or the other, but, yeah, there are other reports, out there, of it. It’s just – I’m sure there are more than I’ve got my – gotten access to.


Martin: So one other question comes to mind is: how did Ray go about seeing these and filming them to begin with?


Chris: Oh, boy. That’s a great story. One of the things that I recall that he had said was – and he was at a time, in his life, he happened to be down on, I believe it was, Emerald Cove, or Emerald Bay, which – and there’s a park right near this cove where the breakwater is that has a small part that you can – you could apparently walk out on, and he was there with his children, his daughter and one of his sons, I think, and, apparently, he had – what I recall, from Ray, when I first met him, and I met him, I think, a year before that, but it was a year or two after that that I finally got a chance to go visit him at his house, but when I first met him one of the first things that recall was the guy carries this camera with him everywhere. He had a backpack. We were leaving to go eat, and he made me turn the car around and go back to his house, because he had to get that backpack with the camera, so be prepared, in other words. That was one of the things I noticed. He was definitely prepared, but he was out on this breakwater with his children, and he told me, laughingly, that he had always told his children if any one of them ever saw something unusual and pointed it out to him he’d pay them 10 dollars, so for what – I guess that motivates the children. These were little kids, at the time, right, and apparently he was out on this pier, a little breakwater out there, and there was another family was out there, as well, so there were other witnesses to this case, this sighting, but, at one point, his children pointed. Daddy, what’s that? And when he looked up he said he almost dropped the – he had some, still, some images or slides in his backpack. When he put it down, to get the camera, he’d almost dropped them in the water, but he pulled that camera out, and just started cranking off film on it, and he’d got film of the first 4 of them before he ran out of film in the camera, so the remaining 2 or 3 of them he didn’t get those on film, but he filmed these things with his camera as they were proceeding across the sky, and, if you were standing on the cove, and, once again, I will defer to Ray to clarify any details that I mistake, here, but if you stand on the cove and you’re, basically, facing south these things were coming in from inland off to the, I believe it was the, northeast, slightly, that direction, so they came over the – over land, so to speak, towards the coast, where he was, and then would turn and almost go straight up, so he was able to film all of this stuff happening, and in the film you get images that seem – that show, basically, the leading face of these – the vehicle as it’s coming over, and then some of the back side, so he’s got some really great images of this particular film. I’ll preface all of this by saying this is not the only film Ray has over a – his 50–year – more years he’s been involved in this. He’s got some very, very compelling films, but this one I focus on because of the situation with Myrabo and Air Force, but it is a profound bit of film. There are things that I’ve seen as he and I have looked at some of these images that are just incredible, as he calls them propulsion diagnostic. When you look at things going on in the atmosphere around them not only can you see the beam you begin to see the plate – the points further out on that beam as it begins to flare. You begin to see all sorts of things happening that it takes a good bit of looking and studying the overall image to see these patterns, but it is one of the things that Ray – definitely one of his innate skills and abilities he has, which is to notice these subtle patterns. Of course, it’s paid off a lot in his palaeontological work, as well, looking for dinosaur track, and things like that, but the ability to see this is clearly the proof in the pudding as, of course, Myrabo saw it, and he saw it instantly. You and – you would see it. I mean, this is not something hard to tell. You would be able to recognize it, but it’s an incredible bit of film showing a lot of things going on around this – these vehicles as they come across the sky, but that’s how he happened to get it. He just happened to be out there, and his children pointed it out to him, so I guess they –


Martin: Do you have – do you know if they – he paid them the 10 dollars?


Chris: I believe they got their money, yes.


Martin: Worth it, that time. Now, I want to – there are – the next show we’re going to do we’re going to be talking about Paul Bennewitz more. You just found out some new information, and a peer–reviewed paper can – that, kind of, ties in with this. Can you talk about that?


Chris: Yeah. Once again, it’s one of those things that I would defer to the experts – to Myrabo and Professor Meessen, but in August, of this year, there was a conference given in Moscow. Apparently, it’s given every year, and it’s The Progress, if I get this correctly, PIERS: Progress In Electromagnetic Research Symposium, and, if you recall the case I mentioned to you, the 1989, 1990 Belgian Sightings, where there were some very unusual deltoid, or triangular–shaped, vehicles that were sighted over Belgium, and one of the very prominent professors, who’s a – been a very big supporter of this phenomenon, the subject, was a gentleman named Auguste Meessen, who’s a Belgian professor, and very renowned, I mean, qualified individual, but he, apparently, presented 3 papers at this last conference in Moscow. If someone wants to go look for the papers they’re there, but the papers that show not only some of the reported effects, but the evidence for these effects of electromagnetic radiation, things that are occurring, optical effects, and otherwise, and he did, definitely, focus, to a great extent, or in a big way, on some of the evidence that Ray Stanford has gotten, and the – at least 1 or 2 of the films that I know that were mentioned in the article that demonstrate, clearly, some highly unusual things going on, optical effects, things that you catch on film, that, unfortunately, a lot of it’s there and I just wonder how many people out in the – in UFOlogy, over the last number of years, have gotten images of things, and they don’t know what to look for. In other words, you just don’t see it. That’s, of course, I have had that experience with the dinosaur tracks, but the Moscow, the – I guess you’d call it the proceedings, have been published, and if anybody goes and looks up the PIERS Conference they’ll be able to find the papers by Auguste Meessen, but here is a gentleman who, obviously, is a well–established scientist. Myrabo did his thing. Auguste Meessen has substantiated that there are scientists who are, obviously, looking at this information, and can show you the evidence for why this deserves far more serious thought and research than is widely known, but it’s like one of those nicely–kept little secrets that nobody really wants to talk about, but they are talking about it. It’s just, unfortunately, UFOlogy, as I mentioned, I think, the other day, UFOlogy seems to be asleep at the wheel for a lot of this kind of information that’s out there at – they seem to be doing the same thing the same way they’ve done it for 50 years, and I think there is a lot of – there are a lot of things happening that, I think, would be far better – could be put to far more use – far more effective if you just want to get some information out that people seem to be missing, but these papers are there. I mean, at the – if you look up the PIERS conference proceedings for 2012 you’ll be able to find those papers listed, there.


Martin: Okay, one more thing. I noticed that, in your book, you mentioned, a number of times, how guarded Ray was of this particular film, and I found it rather curious that he wasn’t really looking to put this information out there, and how did that go when you released this in the book between you and him as far as friendship and tension?


Chris: Oh, boy. There’s a good one. Well, Ray and I have been friends a long time. To some extent, we’re more like, you know, he’s my older brother, now, to – in a way, but we are friends. We have different approaches to things, and maybe that works, but we’ve had our share of arguments over it, and he is – he’s protective for all the right reasons, I think, but it’s taken wrongly by people who seem to just want to demand to be shown. He has never refused to show anybody. If you want to go see him, or meet someplace where he’s going to be he will show what he has to anybody who’s willing to come and take a serious look at it, but, just because he doesn’t post it on Youtube, I mean, both of us got, kind of, we got beat up on, a little bit, in the first interview that he and I were both a part of it, because people say: why don’t you just put it on Youtube? As though Youtube is, somehow, the arbiter of legitimacy, these days, and we all know what happens on Youtube. People take potshots because they’re anonymous, and you don’t really know who’s taking the shots, and, I think, it’s been proven to – that he’s correct. Yes, I mean, I keep telling him, over and over, my analogy that people have to see this. You’re going to take some heat, but this is worth seeing, but, as I mentioned, before, scientists have seen it. People have seen this, but he is very, very protective of it, simply because we all know the phrase presentation is everything, that, to an extent, you have to be a – well, let me put it this way: it’s one of the things that gives me the most – that’s the most frustrating thing with Paul Bennewitz’s case is he’s no longer here to be able to tell us the details, and to show us, and explain, and I’ve told Ray plenty of times. I said: Ray, if something ever happened to you, you know, we’re not getting any younger. If something happens to him all of that information that is in that mind of his is just gone. I mean, it needs to be out there. If nothing else, it needs to be out there, but I don’t want anybody to ever mistake the idea that just because he doesn’t put this on Youtube, or just because he’s not out there standing on a soapbox and trying to throw everything out there for everyone to see that it has, in any – anything to do with what I, personally, am staking my own reputation on, the effectiveness and the quality of what he’s got, because all I have to do is step back and say, and point to Myrabo, and point to Meessen, and point to a number of other people that are far more knowledgeable, and, I guess you would say, have their PhDs on their names to substantiate that he’s got the goods, but he is very – he’s willing to show it to anybody, and he’s shown this at presentations in Arizona, at a presentation over in Europe, I think, a few years ago, but he’ll show it to anyone. It’s just a matter of – he’s very cautious about what, typically, tends to happen if you just post it online, and you have no idea who, for reasons of their own, will want to start taking potshots at it, or making negative comments about it, you know, that sort of thing, and, unfortunately, these days you’d really don’t know who’s the – really behind some of the things that are said, or posted here and there, and why, but he’s – he, definitely, has got the goods on it, and I’ve stayed up ’till 3 o’clock in the morning many times trying to enhance some of the images, and from the films that he’s got, but, believe me, the things that – what I show, in my book, is just the tip of the iceberg. It’s a very substantial tip, but it’s the tip of the iceberg for the types of things he’s got, and the types of things that were shown in the paper that was presented at the PIERS conference, and whatnot, but it’s good stuff.


Martin: Speaking of Youtube, you know, there’s a lot of bogus pieces up on Youtube, as well, and some of them are very well done, so it’s, kind of, hard to distinguish what is right and what isn’t, on Youtube, so I totally understand that. Listen, this has been great, and you’re going to come back with us for another interview. We’re going to talk, mostly, about The Paul Bennewitz Case, then. Thank you so much, Chris. This has been wonderful. I really appreciate it.


Chris: Thanks, very much.


Martin: So, this is Martin Willis with Chris Lambright, and that’s it, for today.


The End