Show Notes, Stanton Friedman I, Episode 7.

Listen to the podcast here.

Martin Willis: Hi, everyone. I have the great, the one and only, Stanton T. Friedman on the line. Hi you doing, Stan?


Stanton Friedman: Very well, thank you.


Martin: And we’re calling you up in New Brunswick, yes?


Stanton: Fredericton, New Brunswick, 73 miles from beautiful, downtown Houlton, Maine.


Martin: Oh, I do know where that is. That’s at the end of nowhere.


Stanton: I-95, the only quiet flight part of it is from there up to Houlton.


Martin: Right, well, thanks so much for joining us. It’s a real honor, and I’ve seen, about, every film that you’ve been in that’s G rated, I should say, and you have been in so many different documentaries and you’ve done over 700 lectures. Is that true?


Stan: Yeah, well, only in all 50 states, 10 Canadian provinces, and 18 other countries. I get around, yes.


Martin: Yeah, now, you became interested in UFOs in 1958, and I read this from your bio, and began lecturing in 1967, so my question is: what sparked the initial interest?


Stan: I’m cheap. I needed one more. I was ordering books from Marlboro Books in New York – mail order place – discount books, and I needed one more book so I wouldn’t have to pay shipping – a dollar, and there was one: The Report On Unidentified Flying Objects by Air Force Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, who had been head of Project Blue Book in the early 50s, and I figured: what the heck? It was marked on a hardcover book from $2.95 to a dollar, which tells you how times have changed, and our contract – I was working for General Electric Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion Department and it was a joint effort of The Atomic Energy Commission in The United States Air Force, so they were funding half our work. That year we only spent a hundred million dollars, incidentally. It wasn’t a small program. We had 3500 people of whom 1100 were engineers and scientists. Anyway, so I respected The Air Force. Second – my mind – gee, if these things are real, and I didn’t have an opinion ’cause I didn’t know anything – that’s not properly stated because you’re supposed to have an opinion whether you know anything or not, you know. I figured if these things were real then maybe they’re using nuclear energy and it would help our program, and the third was what the heck? It’d be worth a laugh, if nothing else, if it was really bad and it wasn’t costing me anything ’cause that would have been the shipping cost. Anyway, I got the book, I read it, I was impressed, not thoroughly convinced, but intrigued, and sharing it with the neighbor, I was 24 – Charlie was ten years older than I was. He was an engineer. I respected his opinion, and he was more impressed than I was, which encouraged me to look further, and moved off to California. I set a record, I think, for working on cancelled, government–sponsored advanced research government programs, not intentionally, you understand. Moved to California, had a good librarian, got – read twelve more books, or so. Some of them were trash, and if I’d read them first I’d probably never read another one, and then I made a shocking discovery about 1960, 61. At the University Of California, Berkeley Library I’d found a thing called Project Blue Book: Special Report Number 14, there were a couple of surprises. One, it wasn’t mentioned in any of the books that I’d read – a little weird. Two, it was a huge supply of data, more than 50 charts, tables, graphs, and maps. I was in data heaven, and three, the press release was with it. A guy named Dr. Leon Davidson, who was working at Los Alamos, had managed to get a copy of this thing and, so issued it with the press release. The Secretary Of The Air Force lied through his teeth. That shook me up. I mean, working under security is sometimes, how shall I put it? Tiptoe around the truth, so as not to reveal classified information, but here was The Secretary Of The Air Force saying, “On the basis of this report we believe that no objects such as those properly described as ‘flying saucers’ have overflown the United States. Even the unknown 3% could have been identified as conventional phenomena or illusions if more complete observational data had been available.” Only problem with that very straightforward statement: it was a total lie! The unknowns were 21 and a half percent. That’s not a round–off of 3. They did a quality evaluation. The better the quality the more likely to be unidentified. We’re talking about 3201 cases, now. We’re not talking about a dozen, two dozen. 3201, and they had a rule: no sighting could be labeled as an unknown unless all 4 of the final report evaluators agreed it was an unknown, and they asked an obvious question. Is there, really, any difference, with all this data they had, between the unknowns, the only ones we’re interested in, and the knowns? And, so, he looked at 6 different observable characteristics: current, size, color, shape, speed. They did a tight square analysis. Anyway, what they found was the probability that the unknowns were just missed knowns, we missed the boat, here, some place, was less than 1%. Now, these data, somehow, got left out of the summary, and we still hear statements from the nasty, noisy negativists implying that the only reasons sightings can’t be explained is there wasn’t enough data. They had a separate category, right, for insufficient information. There wasn’t enough data, by definition, should not be an unknown, so that report shook me up. I joined NICAP – two old groups which don’t exist anymore to get their newsletters. Talked about it at lunch with my brown bag buddy scientists, and, you know, keep up with what was going on, with no particular intention to go public. I had a job, I had a security clearance, a family, a mortgage, etcetera. Moved to Indianapolis, worked for General Motors on what turned out to be another cancelled government-sponsored program, got to know Frank Edwards, who lived there. He was a journalist. He knew everybody, radio, print, and Frank came out with a new book: Flying Saucers: Serious Business. It was a bestseller, and he sent me a copy, and by the time I moved to Pittsburgh to work for Westinghouse Astronuclear Laboratory on another big program, which, eventually, was cancelled, and I called Frank and I said: Frank, I like the book. I want to go public. You know everybody. Give me some names, and he did. One of them was the producer for a radio talk show with the good name Contact. How do you like that? And, so I called, and I was a little surprised. The guy didn’t seem to be interested. Don’t call us, we’ll call you, and I was surprised because in Pittsburgh being a nuclear physicist for Westinghouse, which has several nuclear divisions here, those were gold-plated credentials, and, I mean, you go in to borrow money. How much do you want? Because you work for Westinghouse, you’re privileged. Anyway, surprising as it may seem, the guy called me less than a month later at 6:30. Could I do the show at 7:00? Please? Somebody had cancelled. I’ve often wondered how many other calls that he made. How far down his list would they go? But I lived near the station, so I said: well, yeah sure. Why not? So, I went down to the station, and that was my first of many appearances on KDKA Pittsburgh. It’s the biggest station in town, and somebody at work, at Westinghouse, heard me on the radio, and it – their book review club was reading Frank’s book. Stan, you think you can give a lecture to my book review club? Sure, why not? So, my first lecture was in her living room. It was very well received. I did the program many times more and was beginning to like this lecture business, and one day – 70, I’ll tell you, that’s the story of my life – I’m riding to work out of downtown Pittsburgh, and Westinghouse asked for a nuclear lab was in a small town called Large, out of town, and my car was in a garage, so I was driving in with Joanne, who had a PhD. from Carnegie Tech, supervises Westinghouse, and we’re talking and I said: yeah, I’d like to speak at Carnegie Tech. She says: talk to the Dean. I said: well, Joanne, I talked to Dr. so and so and he wasn’t interested. She said: Stan, the Dean’s my husband. He’s heard you on the radio. Give him a call. Okay, insider, so I called Dean, as it was, and oh, yeah, love to do it, so we figured out a date. It was during the day, and he, finally, says bottom line: how much do you want? And, knowing I’d have to take some time off work I thought I was reaching for the stars. I said: $100. Sold, and then because I knew his wife he told me what he was paying the other speakers in the series: $1500, $1600. Well, I learned an important piece of information, because I spoke, it went extremely well, we had a great crowd, and he was kind enough to send a very nice letter to the agent through whom he had booked the other speakers, and that guy booked me at a milestone talk, for me. I was working full–time at Westinghouse – nuclear rockets. They booked me at The Engineering Society Of Detroit. $300 expenses. Wow! So, I go up there. It turns out they were sold out three weeks in advance for 1080 people for dinner and a talk and there wasn’t one negative person. Nobody could say The Engineering Society Of Detroit is a bunch of nuts, kooks, quacks, or anything like that. They’re pretty down–to–Earth guys up there, so that inspired me to do a lot more speaking, and, finally, I go to my boss and I say: look, I’d really like to do more lecturing. On the other hand, I have a wife, a child, a mortgage, a clearance. I don’t want to endanger anything. I need some ground rules. What can I do? What can’t I do? So he goes to his boss and he comes back with some rules. First, you can say whatever you please on your time. Second, you can identify yourself as a Westinghouse Nuclear Physicist. Third, we’d like you to start with a disclaimer that says the views you’re about to hear are mine and mine alone and not those of my employer. Now, who could ask for anything more? Well, I did asked for something more because I got a call from a colleague at Los Alamos national laboratory. They were building nuclear rockets, as well, and we’d had contact about building for nuclear rockets, pretty esoteric one, and he said – Glen says: Stan, how about speaking to our local section of our American Nuclear Society. Well, I was a member of The American Nuclear Society. I said sure. No, I mean on an expense account, Stan. Whoops! I’m in Pittsburgh. He’s in New Mexico. I say: I don’t make those decisions, Glen. I talk to my boss and he talked to his boss who, fortunately, had heard me speak to a joint meeting of AIAA and IEEE, two engineering groups – societies. A full house and no negative questions and everything, and they said: yes, so, believe it or not, I went to Los Alamos, on an expense account, for the explicit purpose of giving a lecture: Flying Saucers Are Real to the Los Alamos section of The American Nuclear Society. We had 500 people and, again, no negative questions. No secrecy – in other words I didn’t say: oh, I’m not on a trip to talk about radiation shielding. No, I was going to give a talk. The enthusiastic response of my professional colleagues really go me going, and when the bottom fell out of the advanced nuclear and space systems business, I went dead, I went full–time, and I’ve been at it ever since. I’m going to retire, but maybe when I get to be 80. I don’t know.

Martin: Now, have – did you ever get any ridicule from fellow employees, at all?

Stan: No. As a matter of fact, it was the enthusiasm of the professional people, and I’ve given over 700 lectures, as I mentioned, and I’ve only had 11 hecklers, and 2 of them were drunk, and 1, just to illustrate, was at The Gulf Research Labs in Pittsburgh, and he interrupts me 3 times. I said: I’ll talk about that later. You know, why don’t you talk about this? Why don’t you talk about that? Finally, the boss of the dinner and a talk, the boss is sitting next to me, said: hey, let him finish, so I finish and I turn to him, and he says: well, I’m sure one could come to different conclusions than the ones you’ve come to, so what I says: look, if I recall, you hadn’t read any of those 5 large–scale scientific studies that I’d mentioned. I describe this study, show a slide, tell people what’s in it, and then I, casually, ask: how many of you have read it? And I, really, get 2% who read it, and I said: as I recall, you hadn’t read any of those, right? Well, yes. Well, that’s the difference between us, isn’t it? I give you my conclusions. I give you the sources of evidence on which I base my conclusions. You have read none of them. Whose opinion is worth more? Long silence, so no, I – it hasn’t been a problem. I’m told you’ll get more hecklers than that, in that number of lectures, if you talk about sports, religion, politics, whatever.


Martin: Oh, I’m sure. Yeah.

Stan: What happens, sometimes, is people will reveal their interests that they hadn’t told anybody about. I remember two guys coming to my lecture, and they were talking to each other. I didn’t know you were interested, Joe. I didn’t know you were interested, Bill. All right, but I’m a member of NICAP for years. They hadn’t talked for fear of ridicule, and I know that that’s very important because, at the end of my lectures, I normally ask – I’ll say: look, I get the first question. How many of you believe that you have seen what I would consider to be a flying saucer? I’ve defined my terms earlier on, and we didn’t want the CIA in. Okay, I’m like little terms – I’m just going to point and count, and I do that and the hands go up very reluctantly. They know I’m not going to laugh. They’re not sure about everybody else, so I point and count: one, two, three, four, five. By the time I get to the other side of the hall the hands go up vigorously. Each one thought he was the only one. It turns out about 10% believe they’ve seen one, but then I ask: how many of you reported what you saw? 90% of the hands go down, and if there’s any left I’ll say: how many of you were in the military, at the time? If there’s still anybody left I’ll stick my neck out and say: you want to tell us about it? One guy, in front of 1300 people, had a great line. He says: I can’t! They told me not to say anything! And another guy said: they took my pictures, and he stopped, so I waited a moment and I said: look, we’re not asking – I’m not asking you to stand up, and asking for identification, or something. I’m sure the audience would like to hear the rest of the story. He remained seated, and people clapped. He remained seated. He’s flying a four–engine airplane for The Air Force out the Pacific, daytime, gets a call on the radio. Plane twenty miles ahead of him – flying saucer heading your way. They had gun cameras. They took pictures, called the base to which they were flying to let them know they had intelligent stuff, the crew doesn’t handle it, that special stuff. They land, the film gets taken, they get briefed and told never to say anything, and I’m sure there wasn’t anybody in that room who didn’t believe that this guy was telling the truth. I mean, he was not looking for PR or anything, so, what I found, is I am not a masochist. There’s a whole chapter in my book, Flying Saucers And Science about public opinion polls, and then believers and non–believers, and so people say to me: you must get hard – they must give you a hard time, Stan. I said: no, they don’t. I come on very strong, no question about it, but what I find is that people are shocked by the data, ’cause nobody’s told it to them, before, like that data from Blue Book Special Report 14, and, furthermore, what they really want to know, is the why questions. Okay, it’s clear that these things are real, as you say. Why the cover–up? Why would anyone else come here, anyway? Why don’t they land on The White House lawn? You know, these sorts of questions, and, let’s face it, when you’ve been asked questions like that you get to thinking about them and, so, you can’t say: well, I’ll give that some thought and get back to you tomorrow, not when you’re in front of 2,000 people in a big auditorium, and I’ve spoken to as many as 2,000, so that I find that people really are curious. They’re ready to accept. Now, occasionally – the one you asked about a professional colleague. I gave a lecture at a college in New York state. Guy gets up, in the question and answer period, and there’s not written questions or anything, first guy that raises his hand gets to ask, so I call on him. He said: right where you start, he says: I’ve never heard so much nonsense in my life. Great way to start, so, fortunately, I had a good answer. I couldn’t have told you what it would be if you’d asked me in advance. I said: can you be a bit more specific, please. Well, you said that Betty and Barney Hill were taken to Zeta Reticuli and back in two hours. I said: no, sir. What I said was they were taken onboard a craft for two hours. They didn’t go anywhere. He gives me a second answer: you said that’s equally nonsensical, so I corrected them, and, finally, the fourth one, and, finally, somebody else in the audience says – audience shouts out: how ’bout taking some sensible questions? This guy gets up, walks out, wasn’t drunk, and I said: I’ll answer your question, but who was that? Obviously, I’d gotten under his skin. It was a professor of physics.


Martin: Oh, really?


Stan: He didn’t hear what I had to say, at all. He expected me to say some things, and, yeah, there are occasions – I do a lot of afternoon talks on campus, you know, physics seminars and stuff like that, and, once in a while, one of the students will tell me: well, Dr. Jones thinks this is a bunch of baloney, so I make a habit, sneaky, I guess, of talking about things they almost certainly don’t know anything about. I’ll describe the nuclear rocket engine, and you’re all familiar with this, aren’t you? And nobody is, of course, and I’ll get into the electromagnetic submarine. Good physics topics, and then I set them up. I said: a quick one for you. What’s the numerical value of 1g, as in 1g acceleration? Everybody says: 9.8 meters per second squared. I said: well, that’s right, but we don’t measure anything else that way. What units can you use that would – it was like I was talking Swahili, so, I said: well, 1g acceleration is 21 miles per hour per second, so if you got a car accelerating at 1g and the end of 3 seconds it’s going 63 miles an hour, and that’s a pretty hot car ’cause usually it takes 4 or 5 seconds to get to 60, and then I say: what’s the value of the speed of light? 300,000 kilometers a second. I said, again, we don’t use that – those units for anything else. 670 million miles an hour – it’s the speed of light in rational units, and then I say: the next question is, and this is a multiple–choice question, you don’t need to do any calculations, how long does it take 1g to get to the speed of light? It’s a multiple–choice question: 1000 years, 100 years, 10 years, or 1 year. How many think it’s a thousand? And go down the line. There are plenty who think it’s a thousand, or a hundred, or ten. Some will think it’s one, and it is one, only one year, but the whole point of this exercise is to get people to look at the world in a way in which allows them a different perspective about all this stuff. If it took a thousand years to get to the speed of light it sounds like a difficult trip, to say the least, but one year? Ah, heck, we’ve had guys in space for 6 months. Geez, it would only take 6 months to get close to the speed of light, so I do try to forestall the idiotic questions, and they’re – they aren’t many, so what I’m – I surprised a newspaper group chairman, over here, in Canada. They were having a meeting at Saint John, New Brunswick, which is 60 miles away. Hey, Stan, I heard you on the radio the other day. Could you speak to our group? Sure. Well, he sent me a letter: I’ve never seen so many newsmen change their minds about something –


Martin: Really.


Stan: – as rapidly as they did. They just hadn’t known that there was all this data, facts, and so I figure I’ve got a winner. I’ve been lecturing since ’67, so, what’s that? 45 years. I must be doing something right, so I don’t worry – I do give advice to people who say they want to start speaking at stuff. I say: look, there are a couple of rules: never lie, and be prepared. Do your homework before you go out there.


Martin: Yeah, I’ve noticed that on a couple of debates, with you, I wanted to talk to you about, but one of the things that I was – I changed my mind about a person on was I watched the Larry King when the – Bill Nye: The Science Guy was there and I walked in when my son was watching him. I thought: oh, that guy’s great and then I watched him on that and I think: what? I gotta say that guy was an a–hole to you – to everybody. I just couldn’t believe it.

Stan: Well, he was, and one of the crazy things, on that show: he brings out a document that’s got one line blacked out, and he said: these guys say that there’s a cover–up. There’s no cover–up. It’s just personal information: where the guy lives, and I, fortunately, had my book with me and I fully managed to turn to the page that has the CIA UFO document, there, which is all blacked out except for 6 words, and I said: that’s not the way it is. The – it took me 5 years to get this CIA Top Secret UMBRA UFO document and it’s almost all blacked out. I’ve got 156 NSA UFO documents all whited out. There is cover–up. I was just looking. I had the book, and can turn to that page real quickly, but, yeah he, so, on one of his shows, said that the ten missiles – Minuteman Missiles that went down, oh, it was just a power failure up at Malmstrom Air Force Base. It’s pretty redundant power, for God’s sake, you think we’re, you know, somebody kicked the extension cord.

Martin: You couldn’t do that if you try – no one could do that if they tried, really.


Stan: No, and another example, he said: Roswell was a skyhook balloon. Well, in the first, I tried to – this was not on the air. That’s the way it was. Well, it turns out no skyhooks were launched at the time of, or had been launched at the time of Roswell. Secondly, they – these huge polyethylene balloons – big, teardrop–shaped balloons, you know? They’re gigantic. Well, the Roswell balloons, even if you believe The Air Force, were small, standard balloons that you could buy at a surplus store, these days, a few feet in diameter, were neoprene balloons, and, as a matter of fact, when they’re out in the sunlight, and it gets pretty hot in New Mexico, they turn to dust, practically, in a couple of weeks. Polyethylene is much more resistant, as it happens, but, I mean, this was Bill Nye: The Science Guy. I got a note from his ex–wife saying that, you know, he probably spent at least 5 minutes on the internet before doing that program.

Martin: That’s perfect, yeah.


Stan: So, well, I did Larry King 4 times, but ’cause he doesn’t have a show, anymore, it isn’t fair.


Martin: Yeah, no, it was great. I was so glad that he was doing that. Speaking of Roswell, you were the first one, basically, investigating that, and there’s some great people working on it, now. We had a guest, formerly, and he’ll be back: Don Schmitt, Tom Carey. What’s your opinion on that? Do you think the truth will ever be revealed, or would it have to be the government –


Stan: Well –


Martin: – that comes through and admits this.


Stan: – obviously most original witnesses are dead, we’re talking seven. It may be as a result of something else, entirely. A Hollywood company, Stellar Productions, has optioned, for making a movie, Top Secret: Majic, M–A–J–I–C. My book, Top Secret: Majic, and Don Schmitt and Tom Carey’s book, Witness To Roswell, the idea would be to make a dynamic, sort of, documentary, the ups and downs of UFO research, partnerships that break up and things that go wrong, and stuff like that, and the screenplay’s been written, and now the point is to find somebody with two million dollars he spend to make the movie. In charge, well, there are two guys, the joint producers would be. Bryce Zabel is the Hollywood mogul, if you will, president of one of the unions, and stuff, and Donnie Most, who you remember from Happy Days.


Martin: Yep.


Stan: He’s into film production, too, and, so, we hope that the movie would be like All The President’s Men, a little JFK thrown in for effect, but the good, the bad, the ugly, the – and so forth. I hate to admit it, with my name on 5 books, which were all listed at my website,, more people watch movies than read books. Terrible thing to say, but it’s true, unfortunately, so that movie could produce a real feedback. Now, there’s a second movie that’s just been optioned, I signed the contract Saturday, for the book Captured! The Betty And Barney Hill UFO Experience, by myself and Kathleen Marden, Betty’s niece, who did most of the work on the book, and the same outfit, and so we can have a dynamic duo of movies that shake up the world, who knows?

Martin: Yeah, I was –


Stan: I hope I’m still around when they get made.


Martin: Yeah, me too. I grew up in the Portsmouth, New Hampshire area. Now, they – what’s the original film that they did on that? That was back in the 70s, or something.


Stan: There was a movie in 1975 that Universal Studios did for NBC starring James Earl Jones and Estelle Parsons and Barney Hughes, and I was a consultant on that movie. I was living in southern California. Would you believe they got my name from The Air Force? I think, funny, so I talked with James Earl Jones and was at the set and so forth, and it wasn’t a bad job. Now, our book, Captured!, really focuses on what went on after the first book came out, how Betty’s life was changed. Barney’s life – he didn’t live very long after that. She went through some ups and downs seeing UFOs everywhere and then nowhere and Kathleen was very close to her. She had a really close connection to the story. The day after it happened Betty called her sister, Kathleen’s mother, not too far away in New Hampshire, and told her all about the case and Kathleen was in the room, and a few days later the family went down to see Betty and Barney. Kathleen saw the car with the strange spots that reacted to a compass being placed near them, and, so, she – Kathleen went through ups and downs about her views about the case. She was only a teenager, at the time, but in the last several years of Betty’s life, Betty’s been gone, now, for several years, Kathleen wanted to check to see was this story true, or not? So, she transcribed all the hypnosis tapes, which she owns, incidentally. She’s a custodian of Betty’s estate. The University Of New Hampshire Library has a whole section that’s a repository for a lot of the Hill materials, and so, very careful effort to find out what’s going on, and I was very impressed with all the work she did and she came to me, partly, ’cause I was the first guy to publish The Star Map, but Betty had once said: if there’s one guy you can trust it’s Stan Friedman, ’cause I had met with Betty several times, done television shows, been in her house, and so forth, so Kathleen and I wound up doing this book and we’ve had a good response to it, and I just found out the eBook version has sold 12,000 copies in a very short time, which we’ll make more money from that, for sure, than from hardcover.

Martin: Yeah, that’s great!


Stan: Well, UFOs are a funny subject. Libraries will tell you, I’ve been told this, anyway, that it’s one of the subjects they can’t keep the books on the shelf, and I remember a school librarian told me that. I said: what’s the other one? She said: sex, and, for high school students, and, well, the kicker is both subjects are ones that it’s hard for you to talk to somebody about. Well, think about it as a teenager, and so forth, so we know, and I always confound people who bring me in to speak, because they’ll say: well, there’s not many people interested in this, Stan. I don’t think so. I’ve given them instructions on how to publicize my lectures, and they’re always astounded. We have full houses. I’ve had 2,000 people in a lecture, and people have sent me letters saying this is the biggest crowd we’ve had for this kind of a presentation, because, you see, if it’s sponsored by a university, and if they have highlighted my background working for GE, GM, Westinghouse, etcetera, well, he can’t be a nut, can he? Well, I suppose I could be, but at least people presume that, and the thing that the campuses find is they get so many people from off campus to come to my lecture, so I know the interest is out there, and how do you tap into it? Well, a movie might do it, and if anybody put half the money that went into blowing the lid off the political Watergate into blowing the lid off the cosmic Watergate he could do it in a year, and, what people don’t realize, is the press hasn’t been doing its job.


Martin: That’s right.


Stan: For example, I know of no major publication that has focused on the words of General Caroll Bolander. He was an Air Force General who got asked, in the summer of ’69, what should we do about Project Blue Book? Because the Colorado study, The Condon Report had recommended it be closed earlier that year, and The Air Force needed an opinion from somebody who wasn’t connected with it. Now, General Bolander was an engineer who worked on the Lunar Excursion Module, and we landed on The Moon successfully, and as he told me, when I spoke to him years later, no more 12 hour days, thank goodness. Anyway, he wrote a memo, which wound up closing Project Blue Book at the end of ’69, and in this memo, which we didn’t see for 10 years, got it almost by – somebody made a big request under Freedom Of Information, got a whole bunch of stuff, and this was there. Anyway, in it he says reports of UFOs which could affect national security are made in accordance with JANAP, Joint Army Navy Air Force Publication, 146, or Air Force manual 55–11, and are not part of the Blue Book system. Two paragraphs later he says: if we close Project Blue Book the public won’t have a place to report sightings, however, as previously noted, reports which could affect national security will continue to be investigated using the procedures established for that purpose. Now, that’s remarkable because The Air Force has been saying for umpteen years that Blue Book was the only group that was concerned with UFOs. Well, I managed to locate, when I got a copy of this memo, to locate General Bolander, and I said: gee – I told him I’d had a security clearance and so forth, and I said: it sounds like you were saying that there were two separate communication channels. Yes! In other words, if a saucer goes down the runway at a strategic air command base where nuclear weapons are stored that’s a national security problem. If you and I go out at the end of my driveway and fight through the snow and see a saucer going over it happens everywhere, all the time. No big deal, MUFON, The Mutual UFO Network, incidentally, has, for over a year, been getting over 600 sighting reports a month –


Martin: Wow! That’s amazing!


Stan: – and I get people saying: I haven’t heard anything about UFO sightings, recently. Well, they been going on, so what I’m saying is what Bolander, alone, said is a major statement because if you read what The Air Force sends out to people, you know, we closed Project Blue Book. We have no connection with it. There’s no national security problem, blah, blah, blah. Well, and I’ll tell you that no sighting report evaluated, investigated, collected by The United States Air Force gives any evidence of being a threat to the security of The United States. Well, what if any of those three functions were done by somebody else? Then it would still be a true, but not meaningful, statement. They say there’s no evidence of technology beyond our knowledge. Well, no, of course not. I worked on fusion propulsion systems, in a study thereof, that’ll get us to the stars. Worked on fission rockets – incredibly powerful little monsters. We know about technology. That doesn’t mean we built them, yet, so it doesn’t take long, hasn’t been now, but it doesn’t take for a major media group, if they want to dig into this, and it’s one of the things we hope comes out of the movie Majic Men, M–A–J–I–C, and finding people with guts enough is the problem. I need to tell you the press is in trouble – print media –


Martin: Oh, yes. It’s dead, yeah.


Stan: – ’cause the internet and all the other things going on so they don’t have much money for investigative journalism other than looking at other sites on the internet, much of which is garbage, but it’s not that big a deal and I think, frankly, if we were to make an all–out effort, for example, to get amnesty for those who learned about UFO stuff while working under security, I mean, maybe, say, you go back, it had to be more than 25 years ago, something like that, you’d be flooded with reports. Now, there are some people saying that, oh, the Secretary Of The Air Force, Sheila Widnall, said anybody could talk about about Roswell. No, she didn’t. What she said was that anybody who thought that what they learned was classified could talk to Colonel Weaver about it. He wrote that first report: The Roswell report Truth Versus Fiction In The New Mexico Desert. He provided the fiction, unfortunately. She said that they could talk to him, because he had clearance, for all the special clearance programs. He didn’t say – she didn’t say that they could talk to anybody else, so that would be one step, and, also, have a collective central collection point. When I’m living in southern California I get a call one Monday night about something seen Sunday night: a red light over a highly–populated area back behind a clock on Sunday. I mean, should be a lot of people around. Beautiful weather, and I didn’t think too much of it. What am I going to do with a red light in the sky? Well, I get another call, the next night, from somebody who’d seen a red light in the sky, same time, looking from a different direction. I thought, well, let’s do something about this. I called the local paper and said I’d like to have a letter in there saying people can send me their information, and stuff. Oh, sure, send us a letter. So I did. Gave them a telephone number, a post–office box, no email back then, and witness names won’t be used without permission. Anybody else who saw, and I didn’t give a lot of details. I got 30 responses by phone or by letter, and people were so relieved, and many of them were with a lot of other people, and they tried to call – they call the cops. What are you drinking, lady? That was the standard response, and one of those people had binoculars and could tell me that it was a plastic bag in a little frame with a candle inside. He told me where it came down and I checked – The Wilshire Country Club, and I talked to the fire chief, and yes, they were not about to go public with it, the reason being they didn’t want every kid in the neighborhood to try to do that. They’re a fire hazard. It gets very dry in Los Angeles. This was, like, in March, and, so, what I’m saying, though, is a little effort to get more responses from people really made a difference, and it’s like the America’s Most Wanted television program. You got enough people looking there’s a – greatly increase the chance of somebody finding the guy you’re looking for. I mean, going up and down the – your own street isn’t going to do you much, so a movie could help do that, and so, or a media person who really wanted to do it. Hey, there’s a role for Larry King, but you see what I’m saying, that the data is there. I know it’s there and people are reluctant but if you make the circumstances correct they would like to see this mystery solved –


Martin: I believe it.


Stan: – and there’s something else that’s happened – drastically changed. The Kepler Satellite, now people –

Martin: All the planets.


Stan: Yeah, planet – remember 40 years ago? We didn’t know of any other planets. What do you mean? There’s nobody out there. There’s no planets out there. Well, what I mean is we can’t see any out there, whatever. Anyway, it’s only looking at a small chunk of the sky. If you hold your arm at arm’s length and make a fist that covers the area of the sky it’s looking at. They can’t turn it around and look all over the place they want. On the basis of the data they’ve already obtained they’re now talking about there might be a hundred billion planets in our galaxy. A hundred billion. Now, Frank Drake of the SETI effort, Silly Effort To Investigate, S–E–T–I, you know, was saying, a few years back, that there might be as many as 8,000 places in the galaxy that could be sending radio signals. Why anybody would send a signal to a primitive society, like ours, which has only had radio for 120 years, I have no idea, using technology appropriate to us. I mean, I don’t use a slide rule, anymore. Most of us don’t use vacuum tube radios, anymore.


Martin: If we were a thousand years advanced we probably won’t be using radios signals, anymore, either.


Stan: That’s right. That’s right, so – but, the whole point is that people are now saying: jeez, there’s got to be a lot of guys out there, not just us, and what has happened is we’ve gone from Ptolemy, who said the Earth is the center of the universe and all the planets and stars revolve around the Earth, and you can go outside and see how they’re moving around us, can’t you. Anyway, along comes Copernicus, in 1543, and he said: nope, nope, sorry. The Sun is the middle. The Earth and the other planets go around the Sun. Now, he had the good fortune to die the year in which he published that book, so he wasn’t burned at the stake. A few years later Giordano Bruno was. The church banned his book for 300 years ’cause man was the center of the universe and the church is at the top of the heap. Well, now we realize that Copernicus wasn’t right, either, and, so, our insignificance is coming into the fore. A matter of fact, in the Brookings study, done way back in, like, 1960. Impact of contact with extraterrestrials, they said: one of the groups that would be most impacted would be the engineers and scientists whose – being at the top of the heap, suddenly, is not very appropriate, and I think they’re right. Arrogance and ignorance, that’s what I find when I deal with the noisy negativists. I –


Martin: Now, do you think a lot of that – I’ve thought about this. Do you think a lot of it has to do that there’s no grants available for research in UFOlogy, or any of that?


Stan: Well, that’s part of it, and they’re afraid of losing their grants. There have been a dozen PhD theses done on the subject, although you’ll never hear that from any of the noisy negativists. I think a lot of it has to do – I’ve given a – there’s a new disease. I call it The David Susskind Syndrome. Member David? He was a talk show host on television many years ago. In the early 70s he called me in California, they brought me to New York, they wanted me to find them a good abductee, I got them Betty Hill, a good skeptic, well, there aren’t any, but here’s how to reach Phil Klass, and they wanted a bunch – me to send a bunch of stuff, and I did all that stuff. They brought me to New York, stayed over one night. In the course of taping segments for the show, that’s when put people on, he says, off air: you know, I read The New York Times. There’s nothing there that says these things are real, so I defined it as The David Susskind Syndrome. First, I take great pride in keeping up on what’s really important in the world. That’s my job. If it’s important I know about it. If aliens were visiting, and the government was covering it up, that would be important. Everybody grants that, but if it were true I would know about it, and I’d know it, so it must not been. I’m not going to waste my time finding out about this nonexistent subject, and, so, I find that with people with the ancient academics and fossilized physicists, as I call them, that they haven’t done their homework, they’re not willing to do their homework, they’re totally unaware, and they, really, say some stupid things. I did a radio talk show debate, Coast To Coast, with Dr. Michael Shermer, head of The Skeptics Society. Three hours. We’d been on one of those Larry King shows, and then he’d been on with George Noory, before, so we set it up, and he starts off by saying: look, the explanation is very straightforward. For all these crazy, strange phenomena there’s a residue effect. 5% can’t be identified, whatever it is. It’s just because there isn’t enough data. Boy, that gave me a hole I could drive a truck through, so I did. I pointed out, Blue Book Special Report 14, you know, 21 and a half percent. The Condon Report: 30%, according to a subcommittee of the American Institute Of Aeronautics And Astronautics. On Dick Hall’s The UFO Evidence: 17%, and it was downhill for then. We took a vote, at the end, I got 80% of the vote. He didn’t know anything. Now, when I was on with Seth Shostak, who’s a more personable guy – we had met on the Queen Elizabeth 2. We each gave 3 lectures on a – its last westward voyage from Southampton. Kind of a kick, but, anyway, when I gave my lecture I asked, again, who had read this, that, and the other thing, and he didn’t raise his hand for anything, so I won that debate, too. It was 57, 34, and 9. I guess that adds up, yeah.

Martin: 9 unknown or 9 decided, you mean?


Stan: I – undecided, yeah, and I’m waiting, now, I must admit that many months, years later I contacted Seth and asked if I could send him a copy of my book, Flying Saucers And Science, and he said yes, so on the radio he got asked – well, he did have a copy of my book on his nightstand. He hadn’t read it, but that’s the problem. You get the SETI people saying there is no evidence for UFOs. They never refer to any of these 5 large–scale scientific studies, and the crazy thing is SETI has provided not one wit of evidence that there’s anybody out there sending radio signals to us, and not a bit. We’re supposed to take that at – in faith, I guess, and, like I said, why would they do that? Everybody knows that Columbus didn’t send smoke signals to the natives, did he?


Martin: Well, the irony of this would be is if a small part of the government, as you say, made – have known, since 1947, why SETI would come into existence, to begin with.


Stan: Well, because there are people who want research grants. It sounds glorious. Carl Sagan was a big proponent of SETI. Carl and I went to University Of Chicago at the same time, spent 3 years in the same classes, and, in his Congressional testimony, well, in several places, he has said there are interesting sightings that aren’t reliable, there are reliable sightings that aren’t interesting, but there are no interesting and reliable sightings. No references given for this totally false claim ’cause in Blue Book Special Report 14 they evaluated reliability, and they found the more reliable the sighting the more likely to be unexplainable, but nobody, except me, pointed that out, so the SETI community has a serious problem with UFOs, and with an understanding of how society works. That’s not their long suit. There was one guy who says: you know, aliens could determine that our CO2 level has increased, on this planet. They may be very perturbed about that, and I’m sitting here: what? This is a society that has exploded 2,000 nuclear weapons. 2,000. Only 2 of them on people, fortunately. I’m very grateful, but, in terms of the larger scheme of things, in the local neighborhood there are 2 implications of that. One is that you could build a propulsion system using nuclear energy, which is true. We have, incidentally, just for kicks, we have aircraft carriers that – nuclear fission – that can operate for 18 years without refueling.


Martin: Right, amazing!


Stan: That’s very impressive, to me. Now, the second implication of that is that we’re obviously a primitive society who’s major activity is tribal warfare. Nobody, out there, would want us out there. Of course they got to keep tabs on the idiots, here.

Martin: Yeah, the virus, as someone put it. We’re like the virus. They don’t want us out there.


Stan: Yeah, I mean, maybe we’re a penal colony. They dumped all the bad boys and girls here, and that’s why we’re so nasty to each other. When you go to Australia, incidentally, they take great pride in their convict ancestry.


Martin: That’s right. Hey, Stan, I mentioned this on a previous podcast, and I don’t want to belabor the fact, but I did speak with someone, years ago, that was, supposedly, involved in Vietnam and studying UFOs for the government, and he was my insurance agent, and his thing that he said is that we’re – the government’s concluded that we’re a Petri dish, and have you ever heard anything like that, before?


Stan: I kind of like that analogy. No. Ah, we’re – Fleming discovered Penicillin that way, kind of, by seeing some strange things happen. Who knows? I mean, in my book, Flying Saucers And Science, there’s a whole chapter on the why questions. There’s a piece on my website, too. Why would aliens come here? I think I could give 22, maybe 23, I don’t know, reasons for coming here. The broadcasters of the weekly show, Idiocy In The Boondocks. It’s the honeymoon capital of this corner of the galaxy. They’re being punished. Spend 2 weeks in their Earth, boy, you better get your next assignment right, and, but also, and let’s be a little more pragmatic, it turns out the Earth is the densest planet in the solar system. I don’t mean the people, I mean, which is probably true, too, but a cubic foot of Earth weighs more than a cubic foot of any other planet in our solar system, and the normal response is: so what, Stan? Well, that means we got more very heavy metals, things like uranium, gold, tungsten, rhenium, platinum. People think heavy is lead. Well, osmium is twice as heavy as lead, and these are rare in the universe, they have very special properties, so they may have been mining them, for all we know, and one reason they don’t want us to have a nuclear war is we’d make it hard for them to do their mining, you know, and also, we’re the only planet that’s covered with water, at this time, about 3 quarters of it, anyway, and the bottom of the oceans have all kinds of goodies, nodules and stuff that – readily mined, and we have over a thousand reports of UFOs, Unidentified Submerged Objects, I suppose.


Martin: Yeah, which is amazing. Well, I mean, if they can do what they do, anyway, one of the people that you debated was Dr. John Alexander, I believe it was, and –


Stan: That was a crazy debate.


Martin: Yeah, the moderator was throwing questions, I guess he was a lawyer, but one of the things –


Stan: Shaheen, yeah.


Martin: – yeah, ones of the things I liked what John said was: I don’t think we know what type of questions to ask, and it was something that, kind of, made sense to me.


Stan: Well, yeah. That was a crazy debate. I found out that I was going to do that 2 minutes beforehand.


Martin: Oh, no!


Stan: It was supposed to be somebody else, Steve Bassett, and I was there and I had given a lecture and I had a vendor’s table, and stuff, and somebody comes rushing. Stan, we need you. What for? Well, to debate John. Well, isn’t Steve doing that? Well, he can’t make it. He’s got some kind of a transportation problem. We need you right now. Okay, I had read John’s book. I had heard him on Coast To Coast a night or two nights before, maybe, and, so, I was willing to take him on, ’cause he made a lot of mistakes in his book and I was ready to point those out, and he’s come up – he’s the ultimate insider, he worked on all kinds of classified programs, had high–level clearances, and he says he and his buddies checked all around Washington thinking that they’d find the secret group that was doing the important stuff. They couldn’t find anybody, so there must not be any such group, and Roswell probably didn’t happen, and no MJ–12, and, you know, I tried, folks, and I had to point out a lot of things wrong what he said in his book. He got the facts wrong about MJ–12, and a lot of other things. It was a strange debate. I should look at the – I have a video, I guess, a DVD of that, but the moderator did most of the control of everything.

Martin: He was really pushing him. Well, Stan, thank you so much. You’ll be back for part 2. I really appreciate it, and thank you so much for joining us, today. This has been great.


Stan: My pleasure, anytime.


Martin: Great.


The End