Show Notes, Stanton Friedman II, 14.

Listen to the podcast here.


Martin Willis: All right, we’re back for part 2 with the great Stanton T. Friedman. Hi you doing, Stan?


Stanton Friedman: I’m still alive and kicking. What the heck?


Martin: Yeah, thanks, again, for joining us. So Stan, I understand how the Majestic 12 Documents were received by that Hollywood producer, and all that, and I know you were doing some real intense research to make sure that this wasn’t a hoax. Can you give us an update on what’s going on with them?


Stan: Well, first I want to make clear that there are well over a hundred Majestic 12, MJ–12, documents. I am standing behind 3: The Eisenhower Briefing Document, which lists the members of the group, gives some background, The Truman–Forrestal Memo, which, supposedly, established the group in September 1947, and The Cutler–Twining Memo, which was found at the national archives after Bill Moore and Jamie Shandera, I’d been working closely with them, had received some crazy postcards but which talked about things in Washington that clearly seemed to say: you ought to go to Washington. I had discovered that a certain record group at The National Archives had, finally, been – the classification reviewed, and it covered Air Force intelligence files from, like, ’48 to ’57, I think it was, so Bill and Jaime trotted off to Washington and, going through a whole bunch of – one of the groups had been declassified – classification reviewed, and in this they found a document, the so–called Cutler–Twining Memo, and, so, that became the third of the ones that I say are genuine, then there’s a whole slew of nonsense out there. Anyway, the attacks continue, none of them any smarter than the first attacks, but you get some idea of the level of sophistication of the attacks. When Philip J. Klass, who was the senior avionics editor for Aviation Week And Space Technology in Washington, and was the go–to guy for any media guy, ’cause he was right there, and who said: there’s nothing to flying saucers. Fine writer, he wrote, actually, 4 books about UFOs all saying it’s all nonsense. I debated him on Nightline, as a matter of fact, and that turned at a University in Texas. That’s another story. Anyway, to give you some idea of the level of discourse, Phil said: well, obviously that Cutler–Twining Memo is phony because it’s done in a large Pica Type, but I have 9 documents, here, from The National Security Council, which is mentioned in this thing. It’s a brief document. They were all done in Elite Type, so I challenge you to find any other genuine documents, he had a whole list of criteria, done in the same size and style type, and I will give you $100 each up to a maximum of 10, unfortunately, for all of these. Now, he had never been to The Eisenhower Library. I’ve spent weeks there, literally. I went to my drawer – file drawer, here, and pulled out 20 Pica Type documents. They didn’t all meet his criteria, though, unfortunately. Had to be signed. Had to, you know, all kinds of junk. Okay, so I knew I was going to The Eisenhower Library, anyway, and I went, and I found 14 Pica Type documents and copied them and sent him copies and an invoice for $1000, ’cause he’d only pay for 100, and he had told everybody about challenging me. Bill Moore got 3 different people asking: hey, what about this challenge to Stan, etc. Didn’t tell anybody about paying me. He sent me a check for $1000, and he got very angry when I included a copy of his check in Flying Saucers And Science. Threatened to sue me, and I, finally, said: Phil, look, you sent me a check. I Xeroxed it. I took the check to the bank. They cashed it. I can do whatever I darn please with the Xerox. I was a nice guy. I blacked out the banking information on the bottom, but, I mean, that’s typical of the  letter – level of discourse. I got another guy who says: oh, the date format’s wrong on the date. It says 18 November comma 1952. That comma violates the government style rules. Now, you have to remember, this is long before computers were the way of doing things. Okay, go to the archives you find all kinds of date formats. I found that same date format used by 2 of the members of MJ–12: Kevin Randle, who has viciously attacked the documents right from the word go, even wrote a whole book, about which I wrote a long, detailed rebuttal. I said: well, the strong – in this book, he doesn’t say it, anymore, but the strongest objection is that the briefing officer, in The Eisenhower Briefing Document, is listed as Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter, but he was only a Vice–Admiral. Obviously, the document’s a fraud. Well, it turns out that it’s was standard practice to use generic ranks. Ike used them, as a matter of fact.


Martin: Not like Rear Admiral, or anything like that, just plain Admiral.


Stan: That’s right, and, yeah, and you can answer the phone Colonel Jones. You better sign a report Lieutenant Colonel Jones if you are one, and I went to The Eisenhower Library, again, and when Brigadier General Goodpaster was Ike’s Staff Secretary, been with him for a long time, he would keep notes at meetings that they had – all kinds of people and was cleared for everything, and he – when he wrote up the memcons, as they were called, memos of conversation, he would list, at the front part, all the people who were at the meeting always using only generic ranks. Called himself General Goodpaster. Signed it Brigadier General Goodpaster, and I asked two different archivists, independently so they wouldn’t get together, does this bother you, this use of generic ranks? Standard practice. Now, one of the kickers is the Navy has 3 flag ranks. The Army has 4. How do you say who gets the better parking place kind of thing, but that – Kevin said: that was the strongest argument against them. He doesn’t say that, anymore. All kinds of objections that are really strange, so I’ve dealt with them in Top Secrect: Majic, Second Edition, especially, 2005. I have a long piece on my website,, a four–parter about the arguments against, and I even, at one point, had a list of, I forget, 3 dozen items that we didn’t know to be true before we got the documents, but that did turn out to be true, so how did a hoaxer know? Well, for example, it says that General Twining began the investigation on July 7th. Now, we had no way of knowing whether that was true, or not, but then I found – I talked to his daughter, and she told me the name of his pilot, who lived in the Washington, D. C. area, and I found the pilot, and he brought his logbook. Twining was still flying, but they had a pilot, who did most of the flying. There was flight day, and stuff like that, and then, later on, I found Twining’s flight log. It’d been in a box that had been classified until it – I was trying to get all of that declassified. You can only ask for a few boxes at a time, so I got Twining’s actual flight log, and, indeed, went to New Mexico on July the 7th. How did anybody get that right? The day of The Truman–Forrestal Memo it mentions Vannevar Bush, who was head of The Office Of Scientific Research And Development during the war, and was there for the first atomic bomb, and all kinds of stuff. It turned out that date was the only date in a several month period when Truman, Forrestal, and Bush were all together. I asked the library: did you ever tell anybody else that? No, nobody else ever asked, so there’s a whole long list of these. Well, one of the most startling ones shocked me, certainly. One of the people listed was Dr. Donald H. Menzel. He was a professor of astronomy at Harvard University. Now, he stands out like a sore thumb because everybody else, we know from the jobs they held, had a very high–level security clearance. General Twining, General Vandenberg, Admiral Hillenkoetter, Admiral Sours, right on down the line, but you don’t need a high–level security clearance to teach astronomy at Harvard, and, beyond that, Menzel had written 3 anti–UFO books. How could he be part of a team that knew about recovered bodies and wreckage and all this kind of stuff. I was very dubious. I’d had one run–in with him. On the phone I called to invite him to attend a lecture I was giving at Harvard ’cause I wasn’t sure whether they’d made public notice of it. It was a engineering alumni group, and I called and he answers, and I said: Dr. Menzel, my name is Stanton Friedman. Oh, I know all about you. Oh, you saw my Congressional testimony next to yours. You can’t be a scientist and believe in flying saucers, he said. I laughed. That didn’t make him happy, so he ranted for a couple minutes. I said: look, Dr. Menzel, I called out of courtesy to invite you to my program. Well, of course I won’t go, so I told the story that night so they’d know I wasn’t afraid of – I was not a fan of Donald Menzel. Well, I found an item at the national – at The Library Of Congress – manuscript edition in the banned Bush papers, and here was this letter from a law firm in Boston thanking Dr. Bush for his defense of Dr. Menzel at these loyalty hearings, which I’d never heard about, and telling him that he’d been cleared and everything, so I followed up on that and talked to the law firm and found out the record, thousand pages, was over at the archives at Harvard where Menzel’s papers were. Now, all these guys were dead, see? So I called. I had to get permission from 3 different people. Look at his papers. I got a grant from The Fund For UFO Research to go up, down to Boston, spend a few days. Had to get his wife’s permission to look at his unpublished autobiography and was totally shocked by what I found, because, when I first heard his name was on the list, I figured: na, somebody’s just trying to show that these guys will believe anything kind of thing. Well, it turns out I had looked at his papers at The American Philosophical Society Library in Philadelphia, and I’d talked to The University Of Denver. He had gone there as an undergrad where some of his papers were at, but, at the archives, wow! I didn’t find anything that said UFOs, but I did find a file that said JFK, and I’m wondering. That’s intriguing, why’s – what’s the connection between Menzel and JFK? Well, it turns out JFK, John F. Kennedy, was on the board of overseers at Harvard, and his area of interest was astronomy, so we’re worked with Menzel, on that His wife told me, later, that he was a great admirer of Kennedy. In letters to JFK we have Menzel saying: there is an area where I might be able to be of some assistance to you. I’ve had a – more continuous association with the National Security Agency, more than 30 years, and its Navy predecessor, of anybody. When we are properly cleared to each other I can tell you more. How’s that for a pregnant phrase? So, I did a lot more digging. I mean, that really got me turned on, and I found out that he had Top Secret Umbra clearance with the CIA and did all kinds of classified work for 30 companies. It turns out he was a cryptographer during the war, taught cryptography, a world–class expert, had learned Japanese to help in the crypto–work, and he had this long history of highly classified work for the government that nobody knew about. As a matter of fact, Scion Telescope devoted 2 issues to him: 1 when he died, and 1 at the hundredth anniversary of his birth. Not one word about his highly classified activities after the war, and, as a matter of fact, he was head of Communications Unit Number 1 Of The Naval Reserve in Cambridge, so that was a real shocker. I mean, and every – half the people in UFOlogy said: oh, Stan, he couldn’t have lead a double life. I said: why not? Every spy does. Look at Burgess, Philby, and MacLean. These were Russian spies working for MI5 in England, and you’ve got to be really careful when you’re working in one intelligence agency and passing stuff to the other, because, if you’re not careful, something may get out that somebody will know the only place they could have gotten it was somebody on the inside, so that – I then went down to The Forrestal Library, I mean, the firesome lot – Forrestal papers and stuff. I did one heck of a lot of digging, and it was tedious, sure, but you’ve got to dot the Is and cross the Ts, and I, in my book: Top Secret Majic, I bring up every argument I could find against the documents and show what was wrong with the argument, and I – Kevin Randle, on occasions, well, it doesn’t talk about this, so, therefore, it must be phony, like he was psychic and knows what it should be talked about, and, as it says, it’s a preliminary briefing, The Eisenhower Briefing Document, and it was kind of intriguing. 2 Air Force, 2 Army, 2 Navy, 5 scientists, and Secretary Of Defense Forrestal, and it’s been fascinating, and I’ve yet to hear an argument that stands up against those 3 documents. I showed, in the book, I showed why a whole bunch of others are phony documents. As a matter of fact, I call a number of them emulations. I found original items, that have been published in books, that somebody had retyped, and used, word for word, except for changing a date, maybe, and a sentence over here and over there, and I call them emulations, and, once you read the two, side by side, you say: well, obviously this guy copied this thing, but it took a lot of work, and, unfortunately, I’m lucky I live a mile and a half from The University Of New Brunswick Library, which is a big library. Well, to give an example, one of the people mentioned in one of these documents is General Wedemeyer. Now, I’d heard of him, roughly, so I’m asking a guy at The Marshall Archives. Archivists are very helpful people. I’d been to The Marshall Archives, so he had a face. I didn’t just let him do all the work, in other words. I said: can you think of any reason why General Wedemeyer should have been connected with this high-technology MJ-12 group? He said: not a one, Stan. Why don’t you look at his book? Oh, didn’t know he’d written a book. Yeah, The Wedemeyer Report, so I go over the library. Like I say, mile and a half. They had it. I called first. They had it. Grabbed it, and, in 10 minutes of glancing through it, there were 3 letters that had been emulated.


Martin: Oh, really? Wow!


Stan: Yeah, changed – they had – the way they had published these they reset the time, but they included the handwritten parts. They Xeroxed them, I guess you could say, and, so, when you find that the placement is identical with the document that I call an emulation, it’ll have a date, and I agree, and Harry Truman the same places on the page. That’s an emulation, and when you find tricky things, like on one of them Wedemeyer, it says, when you’re finished – in China – Wedemeyer was a China expert. He’d spent a lot of time in China. General Marshall had sent him to China, and he spent almost a year there, and he’d said: when you’re finished in – at Zandia go to New Mexico, and the original, it says, when you – this is to General Twining, supposedly. In the Wedemeyer letter, when you are finished in China go to Korea, which is not in China. I mean, typical of the kind of things you pay attention and you say: uh oh! Bingo! That’s not true, and, so, I had to go through all kinds of junk because the trivia. Well, if that were real it would have said this or that or something else, and, so, it was – solving – I like doing crossword puzzles.


Martin: Yeah, sounds like a big one.


Stan: Well, it is, but it, to me, and I worked under security for 14 years. I’ve been to 20 archives, so I’m accustomed to dealing with documents, wrote classified documents, myself, etcetera, and, so, there was a strong push, on my part, to get to the truth about these thing. I was just as happy to prove that certain documents were frauds, and, well, here’s a typical objection. One guy wrote a long thing. Friedman knows this. Every top secret document has to have a Top Secret control word on it, and at that record group at The National Archives, every single document is Top Secret and they all have control numbers on it. Well, I had the fighter’s guide for that, 57 pages long, for that file at The National Archives, and it is not true. Only about 3% of the documents were Top Secret, and I got 2 different archivists to go on record, ’cause I’d already published 2 Top Secret documents that didn’t have control numbers on, so I knew that it happened, 2 of them who said – the guy at The Marshall Archives said: Stan, if they had to use Top Secret control numbers we’d still be fighting World War 2, and the guy at the Mark – at the Eisenhower, so we have many Top Secret documents that do not have control numbers, and, in case people are wondering: well, why not? Well, it’s very straightforward. If General Jones sends a one– page menu – memo to General Williams he doesn’t want to go through all the problem with getting control numbers, a lot of paperwork, so he puts it in the Top Secret bag and it goes to him at The Pentagon, and no sweat. On the other hand, if you have a 20–page report that’s going 20 different people, you have to have a Top Secret control number because you need to inventory all of these things –


Martin: Yeah, makes sense.


Stan: – so, but here were guys saying: this was the best argument, you know, and, so I have to check all this stuff out. It’s tedious, but there’s a great aha feeling, I must admit, when you find something, so I’m convinced that there are 3 genuine Majestic 12 documents. All the rest is window dressing, and probably phony to muddy the waters. Oh, those documents are all phony. It’s easy to say that, and I’m still waiting for anybody to come up with a good argument. I’m happy to debate anybody who’s listening or who isn’t listening. I’ll take Kevin Randle on anytime. I will say this: I am not psychic, so I don’t know why – one of his arguments was: Friedman thinks that the – there was a crash in the plains of San Agustin at the same time as Roswell, but it isn’t mentioned in this document, so if it isn’t mentioned either that didn’t happen or the document’s a phony, and I point out that I’m not psychic. It says it’s a preliminary briefing to be followed by a complete one. This was on 18 November 1952 when Ike got briefed at The Pentagon, right date, on a whole bunch of different areas. What people forget was that Ike had been in Europe for a good, solid year and a half, or more, before he ran for President in ’52. He’d been – an impossible job. How do you get Germany, England, France, The United States, and Britain to work together to defend against the Russians? They just fought the second of 2 World Wars. They were killing each other. Only somebody like Ike could manage that. He had his hands full is what I’m saying, and, so, he needed to find out what was the latest thing going on, here, and what it says in The Truman –Forrestal Memo is that The Majestic 12 would be accountable only to The President, so they weren’t sending copies all around the place to somebody who might be interested. That’s not how you do these things, and so it’s been fun to run down the list of false arguments, wrong, totally wrong arguments. It’s a pain in the neck, tell you the truth, but you have to do it. If I’m going to stand up, in public, then I have to do that, like it or not.


Martin: Well, that’s what I appreciate about your credibility in doing that. So, Stan, I read your blog about Bob Lazar and I saw a clip online, as well, and that you are calling him out as a fraud, and what upsets me the most about things like this is I think he’s taken the whole UFO credibility and taken it a step backwards. He still fools so many people, and he had me – I was totally convinced when I watched some films that he was in, and he’s fooled all kinds of people making films. He fooled someone that was a pilot that was a very well–known pilot. He’s had a lot of people on his side. It’s all bunk, and can you make a comment on that?


Stan: Well, okay. Let’s go back many years ago. I first heard about him when I was visiting Las Vegas from George Knapp and John Lear, and when somebody’s calling himself a nuclear physicist, which he was, and because I’m known to be a nuclear physicist, a lot older than Bob, I might add, everybody started asking me about it, so I decided, before I express an opinion, I’d better get some facts and some data, so I went over the stuff, talked to various people about them. I saw that there were some misconceptions. For example, George Knapp was one of the finest UFO–related journalists, I mean, somebody who really knows the subject, had presumed, wrongly, for example, that if Bob worked at Los Alamos he must be a scientist, and that he would have all kinds of high–level security clearance. He’d certainly need a clearance to work there. If he was sweeping a floor he would need one, but, certainly, there are plenty of people at Los Alamos who aren’t scientists and who do have clearances. Anyway, I started doing some checking and, especially after I read some of his notions about element 115 or 118 at one time, it varied, and so I started doing some checking, and I did have one phone conversation with Bob, and I had a call from Gene Huff, Bob’s buddy, who was saying: what would it take to convince you that Bob was legit? And, so I told him. I said: well, you know, scientists belong to professional associations. They have resumes. They have diplomas. They publish papers. These are the kind of things you need. He said: okay, so I sent Gene copies of my diplomas from The University Of Chicago, listings in big, fat books of people who were alumni of The University Of Chicago and members of The American Nuclear Society membership directory and The American Institute Of Aeronautics And Astronautics, and a resume, I hadn’t used it for a while, 8 pages long listing a bunch of papers and all that sort of stuff, and, of course, I never heard back from Bob. Then I decided: well, I’ll really go into this. I checked MIT. I’m in the habit of checking on people and – not just Bob – because I’ve found that honesty is kind of a dead word, these days. Some people think everybody lies. I’ve been told that a couple of times, so I don’t – I didn’t grow up that way. That’s not what I believe, and, so, I checked, well, to give you an example by saying that it’s common and needs to be done, checking. Somebody told me he had been a graduate of The Aeronautics Academy, and, in talking to him, it just didn’t strike me as appropriate, so I called the registrar’s office and gave her his name. They can tell you whether somebody graduated there. They may not give you a grade point average, and stuff like that, but you’re entitled to that. Okay, he hadn’t graduated from there, so I asked her, I said: do you get a lot of calls about people who claim to have gone there and – all the time, which was kind of a – brought me up short, a little bit. She said: the saddest story was a woman called and said her fiance had lost his diploma, and she thought it would be great if she could get a replacement. Can I do that?


Martin: Oh, no!


Stan: Yes. You see where this one’s going. There’s nothing wrong with getting a replacement diploma. Well, it turned out the guy hadn’t gone there, so I checked at MIT. I checked – I mean, the claim was he’d gone – he’d got a Master’s in MIT in Nuclear Physics, another Master’s in Cal Tech in Electronics. Now, that, in itself, doesn’t make a lot of sense because if your already got a Master’s Cal Tech won’t book you for a Master’s program, generally speaking. Anyway, Cal Tech had never heard of him. MIT, I talked to the registrar. They’d never heard of him. I talked to The Physics Department. They’d never heard of him. I talked to the guy who collects, oh, commencement directories. I mean, they – every year they put out a list, and he had never heard of him. I talked to The Legal Council. I said: is it possible, I mean, the story was that his record had been wiped out by the government, erased by the government, and that seems strange, for several reasons. One is that MIT has been doing – class people at MIT had been doing classified work since World War 2. They’re no strangers to classified work, and there’s a very big difference between saying somebody went there, and telling you want he did and the technical work he had done or classified publication, or anything like that. It’s not the same thing, so, anyway, The Legal Council said there is no way to wipe your record clean. Now, somebody else had already checked all the yearbooks, for when he was supposedly there, and not found any record of him, so then, a few more things that came up: when I talked to Los Alamos I called them and I gave them 2 names: Bob’s name and a guy that I had worked with on radiation shielding for a nuclear rocket propulsion system, so I knew he’d been there, so, to make sure I was in an office that would tell me about people who were employed there, gave them the 2 names. They had my guy, and I knew he had a Top Secret clearance from the work that we were doing, no listing for Bob. I called people who have the – they put out a phone directory, and, yes, everybody who’s at the lab has a phone, but, if you’ll notice, at the bottom of the page, or at the top of the page, actually, it says: for employees of The Los Alamos National Laboratory Of The Department Of Energy, and it named several more consulting outfits, one of which was Kirk Meyer. You go to Bob’s name in the phone book, and the – after his name it says K/M. Kirk Meyer, so he worked for a subcontractor, not for the lab, and all the subcontractors have to be listed in the thing, too, so that raises all kinds of questions, and then I found that the phone number that was in there was for the, oh, there’s a long name. Clinton D. Anderson Mazon something or other Accelerator Facility. It’s a place where professors from around the country come if they’ve got certain far–out physics questions where you need a Mazon Accelerator. There system is unique, actually, and, so, what happens is the professors can’t bring all their grad students with them, so they need technicians to help them out in setting up their experiments, and, apparently, that’s what Bob was was a technician, and I’ve never said he was stupid. He isn’t stupid, so, okay, then there was the little second at The Little A’Le’Inn in Rachel, Nevada. Bob was to speak there but he didn’t give a talk. He answered questions, and somebody sent me a tape. One of the questions was: can you name any of your best professors, ’cause I had raised that objection. Chicago’s prestigious where I went to school and I could tell you the names of my professors. Bob’s a lot younger. The only member at MIT is equally prestigious, and they asked him. Bob said: well, let’s see, now, Bill Duxler. He’ll remember me from Cal Tech Physics. Well, I’m glad he didn’t say John Smith, ’cause he’d have been hard to find, so I went Directory Of The American Physical Society, which, of course, I had as a member, and there’s a William Duxler listed and I called him. Did have a PhD, did teach physics, but at Pierce Junior College not at Cal Tech. Now, it’s not far, physically, southern California. Intellectually, it’s a very long way. Now, Duxler was a little upset that somebody was using his name. He checked, and found out that, indeed, Bob had taken a course from him the same year, supposedly, at MIT 2500 miles away. That’s a pretty good size commute, and, quite frankly, if you can go to MIT you don’t go to Pierce Junior College. In the past I’ve lectured at Pierce Junior College, many years ago, and, incidentally, I guess this led to the next test that I did. I was little irked. I had been accepted at MIT out of high school. I was Valedictorian of my high school class, but I couldn’t afford to go, and 3 of my buddies had been accepted. They could afford to go. I mean, tuition was 900 bucks a year. Now it’s 20–some thousand, but that was a very long time ago. I’m an old guy, and, so, I was a little peeved, though, so George Knapp gave me the information about where Bob went to high school, so I called his high school. Well, you’ll have to call me back so I can dig out his records. Okay, I did that a couple hours later. I said: I’m having trouble because I’m getting different reports from different places. I don’t know how legitimate he is. Well, let’s see, now, here. He graduated in August, not with his class. That was the first thing she said. That, already, raises big question marks, ’cause, normally, that means you flunked a course. Then I said: well, he did take a lot of science courses, didn’t he? Chemistry. I’m waiting, and waiting. I said: what else? Chemistry. Starting to laugh a little bit. Well, I know, myself, you had to have more than a chemistry course to get into MIT, as a high school student. I know that. I said: well, and then I did something. I’m not proud of it, but maybe it’s good. I said: he was Valedictorian, wasn’t he? Now, he didn’t say he was. I didn’t say he said he was, but, and she laughed and said: no, he wasn’t. Well, was he in the top 10? No, more laughter. Top 20? Top 50? Top 100? And, finally, she’s laughing so much she says: he was, like, 261 out of 363, something like that. That’s the bottom third when you figure it out. Well, I also checked The Admissions Department at MIT. You can’t get in unless you’re in the top 10 or 20 percent of your class. It’s a very prestigious place, and it’s all – hard to compare all the high schools around the country, so they a little leeway with college preps course and stuff like that, but, so, I knew that he was lying, then, and, incidentally, I reported that to George Knapp, and I said: why not get a copy of his high school transcript. He can get that, and so he talked to Bob and, supposedly, referred a letter for Bob to sign requesting a copy of his transcript. Somehow, he never got one. Now, also, I checked, so, I’m running on empty, here, but I also checked on his element 115 scheme, did a little looking around, and I had several people write me when somebody ran a big accelerator for weeks and discovered 4 atoms of element 115. Oh, doesn’t that prove Bob found the truth? No, it doesn’t. You need 10 to the 23rd atoms, not 4. 10 followed by 23 zeros atoms. In addition, all isotopes were short half–life. Now, if you half–life is under a minute, there is no way you can accumulate the 500 pounds that Bob had said Los Alamos had accumulated, and that he had stole some. Now, that would be – if it existed – would be extraordinarily valuable. It’d be like saying: oh, I stole a bunch of plutonium U238 – 239, Bob grade. It ain’t easy to do. Believe me, the safeguards – I worked in the nuclear business for 14 years, and the safeguards are awful strict. Try to get out the door with something that’s radioactive.


Martin: That’s right. My brother works – my brother–in–law works there, now, Los Alamos, and, in the – he’s just getting ready to retire. So, this –


Stan: So, what it all boils down to is Bob isn’t telling the truth about Bob. Oh, there is a document from The Department Of Naval Intelligence when, really, it’s Office Of Naval Intelligence, and it’s got an amount that’s, supposedly, a W–2 slip, which it’s a couple weeks pay and you don’t get a specialized security clearance in a couple of weeks, so it’s downhill from there is what I’m saying. We go nothing. Bumpkis, as somebody once said to me.


Martin: Well, and it’s really something because he’s – he is very good. I mean, he’s – he – you could tell he’s smart and he’s very good at what he’s doing.


Stan: Yes, he is.


Martin: He’s very, very convincing.


Stan: Well, you know, I was told by a radio guy from Berkeley they interviewed him, and he brought with him, the radio guy, a scientist from Stanford, but he didn’t say that’s what he was, and, occasionally, he would throw in physics questions. Bob could answer none of them, and the guy told the radio guy, he said: how much you want to be bet he doesn’t show up, tomorrow, to do a second segment? He didn’t. He didn’t, so what – I’m not trying to second guess why he did all this, why – you know, there was going to be a movie, at one time, of the life story of this brilliant, young genius who was being harassed by the government but who broke the biggest story of all time, etcetera. They backed off from doing the movie. I didn’t have anything to do with that, but, and Bob is clever, in other ways. He – there’s a company called United Nuclear Corporation, and they got taken over by somebody else, so the name was in limbo, so Bob picked it up and he established a company United Nuclear, and sells stuff for labs and so forth. He’s a bright guy. I’m not saying he’s an idiot. I’m saying he’s not telling the truth, and don’t ask me why. I’m not a psychiatrist. I’m a dumb, old physicist.


Martin: Well, I, for one, appreciate that you exposed that, and, because it just, like I say, it just takes everything a step backwards when someone like that does what they do, and I know there’s a lot of other people, out there, doing similar things. I have another question for you. I have a friend that’s, basically, an all–out skeptic, and he and I get into some heavy duty discussions, and whenever I show him something like, oh say, Rendlesham Forest Event, or, say, the Mexico–released tape of UFOs, or something like that, he always finds information online to debunk whatever it is no matter how solid it is, and his number 1 thing that he says, to me: with everyone having a cell phone with a camera on it, these days, how come there’s not more evidence in –


Stan: Well, a cell phone is not a fine scientific instrument, at all, by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, the Moon’s pretty big, in the sky, but you can cover it with an aspirin at arm’s length, not going to show up, much. An absence of evidence is not evidence for absence, and, if you have a cell phone picture, you’re going to have to go public with it. Many people don’t want to go public with any stuff, partly because they’re not very good evidence. I’d rather look at the pictures that Dr. Bruce Macabee, an optical physicist, has examined. The question isn’t: are there phony pictures? Are there a lot of things you’d like to have? Of course, but the fact that you don’t have what you’d like doesn’t mean the thing isn’t real. It’s kind of like there’s some people who don’t believe the government can keep secrets. Doctor, what’s his name, Tyson, from the Hayden Planetarium. Well, everybody said this at Penn State, last year. Everybody knows governments can’t keep secrets. The proof of that is: look how much we know about President Clinton’s genitalia. That’s really relevant. I’ve had such arguments said: look, FEMA and Katrina. The government can’t do anything right, and what in the world is the connection, there? He says: they run The Post Office, for goodness sakes. Well, I’m interested in The NRO, The CIA, The DIA, The OSI, all those alphabet soup agencies. I’ve been to 20 archives. I’ll guarantee you there’s loads of stuff that is still classified. The Eisenhower Library, Ike went out of office in 1961, still had a couple of hundred thousand pages of classified material. Look how many years later this is, so the notion that they can’t keep secrets is absurd, and you can do it very specifically. I can show you loads of Top Secret Umbra CIA UFO documents all blacked out, except 5 or 6 words. Some of them don’t even have 5 or 6 words you can read. They say deny in toto.


Martin: That’s like a joke when you say those –


Stan: The NSA, well, the NSA released a hundred and, finally, they took them back. They refused to release them. Sources and methods information. We can’t release them. It’s prohibited by law, and they’ll quote you the number of the law. Well, they finally released them because President Clinton signed Executive Order 12958 making it much tougher to keep stuff more than 25 years old, I suppose, and you really have to justify it, so nobody thought he would be reelected, and they knew the Republicans would veto this, or get rid of it, so nobody did anything, and then he was reelected, and somebody at The Air Force was looking at a hundred thousand pages a month to try to clear stuff, so The NSA finally released 156 UFO documents, all of them Top Secret Umbra. Wow! Until you look at them. You can read one line, one sentence per page, typically, and the rest is whited out, not blacked out, because Phil Klass had told them that Friedman shows blacked out documents and people laugh and he doesn’t tell them sources and methods. Of course I do, but can anybody believe that 97% of what’s on a page is sources and methods information and it’s only the other 3% that deals with the topic under which it is filed, like UFOs? I mean, that’s absurd, so can’t cover up, and we’ve got the work of, I mentioned earlier, Caroll Bolander saying reports which could affect national security are not part of the Blue Book system, yet The Air Force has been saying: oh, we – that covered everything. That’s all there was. Project Blue Book. That’s it, so there are people who do their research by proclamation. Sounds like your friend. On the other hand, the proper way to do research is investigation. It’s like, we were talking about the MJ–12 Documents. Well, you can say: well, that doesn’t look right, to me. That’s not good enough. Show me what’s wrong with it. Don’t tell me: well, you don’t think he would have put that way. You’re not psychic, so I don’t – I get bothered just because these guys get too much space, but I’m perfectly happy to put them in their place if I get the chance.


Martin: Yep. Now, I would say that – hang on just a second – oh, okay. Let me just – I’m going to have – just go 2 more questions and I think that we’ll be out of time, here. Okay, since your interest began so many years ago do you think we’re any closer to knowing the truth about all this, as a society?


Stan: Well, since I don’t know what all the truth is, that’s a little harder to say. I think we’ve gone past the science fiction thing partly because most people, now, will tell you the best argument for flying saucers is that we can’t be the only ones out there. Look how big the universe is. Look how old it is. Look how many, now, planets there are, and, now, people recognize that governments lie. At the end of The Second World War people trusted the government, for good reason. They just won this incredible, terrible battle against the forces of evil, and when government said loose lips sink ships they were telling the truth. They did, but since that time we found the Watergate, and so forth, that there are people in authority who, I hate to say this, lie about what they’ve been doing and what they’ve done and what they know and what they don’t know, and so forth, and, so, I think people are much more cynical about government, also. Since I find 10% of the people in my audience believe they’ve seen one that means that a whole lot of people know somebody that they trust who has told them about seeing a UFO, and the fact that some of the top grossing motion pictures of all time relate to UFOs. You’ve got Close Encounters Of The Third Kind. You’ve got E. T. You’ve got Independence Day, and there’s a whole bunch more off to the side. That tells you something about people’s interest, doesn’t it? I think it does, and the fact that I’ve only had 11 hecklers in over 700 lectures also says something. People aren’t afraid to heckle if they think you’re full of baloney.


Martin: That’s right, yeah.


Stan: They go to the delicatessen for that, not for a lecture at a university, so, now, I think we will learn more – Max Planck, a great physicist, once said that new ideas come to be accepted not because their opponents believe in them, but because their opponents die and a new generation grows up that’s accustomed to them. He didn’t say understands. He said accustomed to them, so if you look at my book, Science Was Wrong, you’ll find that there were people saying space travel was impossible, flight in airplanes was impossible, there’re a whole, long list of these impossibilities, but, finally, we had toss them out because they were wrong, so the times they are a changing, and I watched it happen, and I remember talking about space travel when I was a kid, and grandmother, I think, saying: hey, he’s a bright kid. Why is he talking about space travel? That’s nonsense.


Martin: Hey, Stan, I got one last question for you, today, and I, really, can – I – first of all, I want to thank you for these 2 episodes very, very much, but I consider you like an icon in this field, and, like I said before, with great integrity. Who would you consider as the person, or people, that are following in your footsteps?


Stan: Well, there are other bright, honest people. Dr. Bruce Macabee, for one, an optical physicist, John Greenwald, who runs The Black Vault, he’s a young guy. John, he may be 31, or so, but he’s followed – filed more Freedom Of Information Act requests and tabulated more information – anybody who doesn’t there’re any government documents about UFOs go to The Black Vault. He’s one. Kathleen Marden is quite a bit younger than I am. She’s done some wonderful work, not only on The Betty And Barney Hill Case, but on abductions, in general, and honest and careful and scientific, etc.


Martin: Now, that’s Betty’s niece, still.


Stan: Yeah, Betty is – yeah, she’s still Betty’s niece.


Martin: Yeah.


Stan: Yeah, well, she’s really gotten involved, and she’s a certified hypnotherapist, and MUFON’s investigator training program for 10 years, so she’s had a lot of contact with a lot of people, and is really careful, and dedicated to truth. I mean, that’s what you want most –


Martin: That’s for sure.


Stan: – and, so, those are a few of the people. In terms of journalists I’d mention George Knapp. We don’t always agree on stuff, but he is honest and decent and works hard. Very fine speaker, incidentally. I have to say that. Billy Cox, out of Florida, has a column: De Void, and Billy, I got to know him years ago, and he followed up on stuff. He had an explanation for the JAL Case. The Phil Klass types had said it was Jupiter and Mars, and, so, I gave them other information, and, obviously, they didn’t fit when you figure there was a good radar sighting from the ground, as well as from the air. Very hard to get Jupiter and Mars from an airplane radar. He learned, and he went and talked to retired General Thomas Jefferson Dubose of Florida, so he followed up. He came to my lectures, so when I see something by these guys I pay attention, George and Billy, so there are good people out there, and I do recommend people join MUFON. I write a regular, monthly column: Perceptions, and their big, annual, I was going to say fiesta. It’s not a fiesta. It’s not even a festival. It’s a symposium – will be in Cincinnati – first week of August. Dennis Balthaser, Roswell, is a good, solid investigator, and because he’s in Roswell, of course, that’s been one of his areas of specialization, if you will, so there are some good people around, out there, and they deserve our credit.


Martin: That’s right. Hopefully I’ll have a few of them as guests as we go on, but, anyway Stan, I thank you so much. You’ve been absolutely wonderful, and again, I’m totally honored that you said yes when I asked you.


Stan: Well, it’s been my pleasure. I like spreading the word, and I grew up with radio. You don’t need to look fine for radio interviews.


Martin: I know. That’s why I do it. All right, take care, so this is Martin Willis with the great Stanton T. Friedman, and that’s it.


The End